FDA Won’t ‘Rule Out’ Repealing Black Box Warning On Antidepressants
159 CommentsBy Ed Silverman // July 7th, 2007 // 10:46 pm
That’s what Tom Laughren, the FDA official who oversees psychiatric drugs, says may happen if CDC data on suicides in 2005, which will be released at year’s end, is compelling. The potential flip-flop comes amid growing noise by some psychiatrists that the agency’s Black Box warnings in 2004 that antidepressants are somehow linked to suicide in youngsters may be scaring some docs, parents and teenagers.
As evidence, some psychiatrists cite a recent study in The Journal of American Psychiatry, which found the number of scrips for pediatric depression, ages 5 to 18, fell more than 50 percent between 2003 and 2005. At the same time, the number of teen suicides jumped a record 18 percent between 2003 and 2004, the most recent year for which data exist.
“If I had known how much the label would rattle parents, I wouldn’t have voted for it,” Gail Griffith, who was the patient representative on the FDA panel that recommended the warnings, tells Newsweek.
For his part, Laughren notes that the study reflected “only one year of data,” but updated CDC may be revealing. “If the rates are up again, it’s likely we’ll go back to the board of advisers,” he tells the weekly mag, which notes the FDA has repealed only one Black Box warning in its history, on the acid-reflux medication Prilosec, which was withdrawn in 2003. “But I wouldn’t rule it out,” he adds. “The evidence is very compelling.”
What should the FDA do about the warnings?
- Leave the Black Box warnings alone (98%, 1,259 Votes)
- Repeal the warnings (2%, 31 Votes)
Total Voters: 1,291
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Lisa Van Syckel
To Dr. Laughren,
Your responsibility is to protect the Public fom UNSAFE AND INEFFECTIVE DRUGS.
YOUR JOB IS NOT TO PROMOTE THE DRUGS OFF-LABEL USE…..HOW MUCH MONEY HAS THE INDUSTRY PAID YOU,TO SEEK,.. THE REPEALING OF THE BLACK BOX FOR ANTIDEPRESSANTS.
In the upcoming weeks, I will be lobbying Members of Congress for a complete investigation.
I will also campaigne for your immediate removal,of your position,at the FDA!! Because you are clearly a DANGER TO OUR NATION’S CHILDREN, AND SOCIETY!!….
To Ms. Griffith,
You and I have been BLESSED!!! Our children survived their antidepressant induced suicide attempts!….
I take it that the the sales of your book have declined,along with the decrease in prescribing of antidepressants in children.How much has industry paid you to be their mouth piece?
And how ironic it is that, that I have been accused of exploiting my child,being a mouth piece for Plaintiff Attorneys, and a Scientologist.When you are willing to Jeopardize the safety and the lives of our nations children,in the name of book sales.
What a Public slap in the face, you just gave to the Parents who lost their children to an antidepressant induced suicide.
If you want to be a Patient Advocate,I suggest, you start acting like one……
jason
As evidence, some psychiatrists cite a recent study in The Journal of American Psychiatry, which found the number of scrips for pediatric depression, ages 5 to 18, fell more than 50 percent between 2003 and 2005. At the same time, the number of teen suicides jumped a record 18 percent between 2003 and 2004, the most recent year for which data exist.
Lisa - I am sorry, some people need antidepressants. You can’t sell your position any better than the drug companies. I believe the data, and the data tells me antidepressants don’t work for everyone, but in many cases the benefits outweight the risks. I am sorry your daughter should have been committed when she was going thru her struggles. I hope you go to a doctor that is better at recognizing symptoms now.
Also, I will be taking my 3 days off this summer - pts. don’t like it when you actually take time to enjoy your family! So if I don’t get to you until next week please understand. Just headed off for a big week, can’t wait to get away!
Laurie
“but in many cases the benefits outweight the risks.”
So how does removing the notification of risk make this decision balanced? If the benefit was so great, why are these drugs NOT FDA approved?
In these new statistics how many suicides were ON ssri’s? How many were suddenly removed from an ssri? How many were switched to atypical antipsychotics? How many were not properly weaned off their ssri of choice? How many attempted suicide in withdrawal(which is still denied by the FDA)? How many children who were NOT put on ssri’s went on to other treatment choices, like therapy?
Drugs are NOT the only choice for childhood depression. Maybe parents just woke up, with the warnings, and made different decisions for their child. Maybe parents realized that altering the brain chemistry of their 5 year old was not a good choice.
The CDC statistics leave more questions than answers. But the conclusion that children need more ssri’s is dangerous, without exploration of the full story…as the CDC has repeatedly said in the release of this data.
Lisa Van Syckel
Jason,
Your patients,…..
I sure hope that you are not leading people to believe that you are a Physician!!….
Im curious…… Has GSK provided you with false information concerning my daughter?Because it is quite clear,that you have no idea what you are talking about!!…….
And yet you want us to believe that SSRI’s are safe and effective in the Child/adolescent population.
Rosie
I don’t believe the data from this most recent study published in the Journal of American Psychiatry.
The reason I have doubts is that in the Oct 2004 issue of Psychiatric Services Journal published by the A.P.A. Number 55: 1192 - 1193, this Journal reported that for the first six months of 2004 the number of prescriptions for antidepressants in the under age 18 bracket actually increased by 8%. Here is the exact quote: “In 2003, U.S. physicians wrote 15 million antidepressant prescriptions for patients under age 18, according to FDA data. In the first six months of 2004, antidepressant prescriptions for children increased by almost 8 percent, despite the new drug labeling.
After the March hearing, FDA hired a group of suicidality experts at Columbia University to reanalyze the data. That analysis, which was the centerpiece of the September hearing, reached conclusions nearly identical to Mosholder’s. It found that 2 to 3 percent of children treated with antidepressants had suicidal thoughts or behaviors that were not a result of underlying depression but were caused by the medications themselves.”
End of quote from Phsyciatric Services 55: 1192-1193 Oct. 2004.
Lisa Van Syckel
Jason’s Motto is the same as the Industry……
IF YOU CANT DEFEND YOUR DRUG!!!…….
ATTACK THE CHILD!!!………..
Rita
“If I had known how much the label would rattle parents, I wouldn’t have voted for it,†Gail Griffith, who was the patient representative on the FDA panel that recommended the warnings.
Right… get off the panel because you don’t belong on it. You don’t base important decisions such as this to ‘please’ people. You base them on medical facts… the fact is kids are dying. What a stupid comment to make!
Jane
Hi,
Several years ago, after being prescribed Prozac, I became suicidal within 2 to 4 weeks. I should have been taken off the drug immediately but instead, my dose was doubled. Needless to say, I became lot worse. Than I was cold turkeyed off the drug and waited 3 days before my psychiatrist prescribed another AD. It took 3 years for the suicidal ideation to completely disappear thanks to what the first psychiatrist did.
The people who are in favor of removing the black box warnings like to portray the opponents as extremists, scientologist, what have you. But when people like Laurie discuss the folks who have been harmed by these meds, she is talking about folks like me. We are real human beings and not just throwaways.
Anyway, causation does not equal correlation and to imply otherwise is greatly insulting the intelligence of people.
Jane
say no to psych drugs
Of course the Journal of American Psych. is going to (falsely) report that teen suicide jumped. Teen suicide has factually been on the decline for decades. Every single school shooting and suicide has been from the victims of psych drugs.
The black box warnings are true. They drive people into drug induced psychosis and not being able to take the stress, they take their own lives and the lives of others. Psychiatric drugs are killing people and babies. Psychiatry cures NOTHING. By their own admittance, they can’t do anything about “curing” so they do what they want. Typical criminals.
Fact is, psychiatry’s only job was to help the insane. And they don’t do that. Daily, they murder, torture, rape, rip brains apart and lie because they’ve been able to. Now that whistleblowers have enough guts to call them on their crimes, they’re loudly yelling.
They tell us that we are “insane” when they don’t even know what sanity is or what a mind is. Historically, psychiatrists cure nothing.
Stay in your labs and play with rats, where you belong.
Hank
To me, the big problem is that the markeing of SSRIs have been so marked by lack of integrity - Glaxo’s withholding Paxil data, Mosholder silenced, benefits exaggerated relative to tricylclics, and on and on - that I don’t know what data is trustworthy.
I also frankly think that withdrawing the black box, if they do, will mean little or nothing. It’s not the label, it’s the discussion and doubts and some good questions that have emerged about these drugs, of which the black box was one small manifestation. Taking away the box won’t end the questions, and probably shouldn’t, until reasonable people can be satisfied that we know more than we did or the relevant folks candidly acknowledge we still don’t.
say no to psych drugs
Jane is exactly the kind of person who was victimized by her psychiatrist. Complete betrayal. And she is right! They blame the Scientologists’. What a complete joke! Anybody with half a mind can research for themselves the tremendous help that Scientologist’s give people daily to help them off of drugs and straighten out their lives.
The truth of the matter is that the psychiatrist’s are losing business. Most people are too smart for them, no matter how desperate we all may be to better our lives.
Attack the correct source–the psychiatrist! Their “illnesses” are voted in annually by a show of hands at their annual conventions. Look at their statistics. 6 million children on psychiatric drugs and how many did they murder?
The public, like Jane, need to be educated on the truth about psychiatry.
Want to find out why you’re depressed, feel hopeless, stressed out, have much pain, strange sensations, extremely upsetting emotions? Read “Dianetics–The Modern Science of Mental Health”. It’s the only book I’ve found in existence since 1950 that clearly shows what a mind is and what can be done about it. Something can always be done about it.
The psychiatrist says “nothing can be done about it so I’ll do what I please”. Ever talk to a hardened criminal? You’ll get the same answer.
We need to be correctly educated, not betrayed. We need to be responsible for our own minds and actions and do things that work.
lisa loring
THEY CANNOT DO THIS! THIS IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY! I HAVE NOT A SINGLE DOUBT THAT SSRI’S CAUSE BIZARRE, VIOLENT, OR SUICIDAL BEHAVIOR IN A VAST PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE, BUT ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG. MY OWN RESEARCH ON SUICIDE DEATHS IN OUR COMMUNITY WAS ASTONISHING IN THE FACT THAT THE MAJORITY WERE ALL READY ON PSYCHIATRIC MEDS WHEN THEY DIED…
PARENTS, PATIENTS, AND FAMILIES MUST BE THOROUGHLY EDUCATED ON THESE POSSIBLE RISKS TO MAKE THE PROPER DECISION .
SOCIETY NEEDS TO STOP POPPING PILLS FOR EVERY SINGLE LIFE ISSUE.
Sal Giorgianni. Pharm.D
I voted to keep the Black Box Warning but only pro tem.
The only thing that would be worse for patients is to have the BB removed before there was full and substantial agreement that the risk of adolescent suicide w/o antidepressants is higher than the risk w/ antidepressants. It appears that there remains a good deal of public doubt (and a bit of cynicism) regarding the data and, I do agree with the FDA comment that it is “only one year of data”. I suppose that after 3 years (generally the impact point of spontaneous ADE reporting) of data we would have a bit better indication of what the true impact of the restrictions and caution to use of these medications is. At that point review of the data may quell even the most strident opponent on either side of the (pardon the pun) emotional debate.
As to Ms. Griffith’s surprising comment regarding her lack of knowledge of the impact that a Black Box would have on the use of a medication, I find that most unfortunate. It is too late to do anything about the SSRI vote now, so harsh criticism of this consumer representative may be a bit misplaced. Maybe to avoid this sort of misunderstanding from happening on other panels FDA might want to be a bit more diligent (presuming that they do not do so already) in providing information to lay-board members about this sort of thing. An educated consumer is our best advocate (to borrow a phrase from that clothing store company).
EUROBEETLE
Go to ssristories.com and see for yourself!Real people real stories.
Illegal drug deaths per year–20.000
Legal drug deaths per year–100.000
Ben Hansen
Here’s the first question which must be answered: what percentage of teen suicides were already on some kind of psychiatric medication?
According to Medicaid statistics, the number of children receiving psychiatric drugs continues to rise at a steady rate. Here are some examples from my state of Michigan:
Children under age 18 on any antidepressant:
Jan 2006 - 14,029
Oct 2006 - 14,370
Children under age 18 on 2 or more SSRIs for 60 or more days:
Jan 2006 - 0
Oct 2006 - 3
Children under age 18 on 2 or more antipsychotics for 45 or more days:
Jan 2006 - 262
Oct 2006 - 379
Children under age 18 on 2 or more atypicals plus an ADHD drug for 30 or more days:
Jan 2006 - 200
Oct 2006 - 271
Children under age 5 on any antidepressant:
Feb 2005 - 72
Dec 2005 - 102
The above data was obtained through a FOIA lawsuit. I continue to battle the State of Michigan in court, but the attorney general is fighting against me every step of the way.
Ben Hansen
Traverse City, Michigan
Mathy Milling Downing
I commend Lisa and Laurie for everything that they have done. Unfortunately, my child was not as lucky as theirs. My beautiful little girl, at age 12, hanged herself after being prescribed Zoloft for TEST ANXIETY!! Yep, that’s right. No history of depression or suicidality. She was anxious before taking tests at school. I should also add that she was both an athlete (swimming, soccer, basketball, LAX) and an Honor student. Had we been given appropriate warnings, Dr. Laughren, had the facts not been hidden, Dr. Laughren, then my child would still be alive. It is not the FDA’s place or PHARMA to decide not to notify everyone of the risks. Let people choose based on ALL facts. If there is a return to no warnings, we are right back to where we started from. We have a right to know. Don’t take that from us.
Jane
To the person who thinks I need to be educated on psychiatry,
,
I greatly appreciate your concern but thanks to what I have been through, I am very educated about the issues, thank you very much.
Also, I am not a victim. Yes, I suffered but victims stay stuck in the past. I chose to move forward and do what I can to educate people as to the dangers of psych meds. I want to use the benefit of my experiences as Prozac was not the only near miss I had.
Jane
Laurie
“An educated consumer is our best advocate (to borrow a phrase from that clothing store company).”
And this is all we are looking for. Quite a few who have posted here have firsthand experience with the suicide reaction. Just because someone has a positive outbome taking an ssri does NOT mean that we don’t warn about the potential negatives. That goes against every aspect of medicine. Does a surgeon warn his patient, in informed consent, of the risks of a surgery, even if they are scary? Of course he does. To NOT warn is malpractice, regardless of how low that risk is. Why is psychiatry any different?
Are depressed people somehow less intelligent in regards to making decisions about their health? Of course not. Psychiatry has reached this “Only we know what the patient needs” attitude. For a field that requires the patients reporting of effectiveness of a drug to as the gold standard, how can they deny an adverse reaction as “part of the disease”? New symptoms that appear ONLY after the introduction of a new drug need to be addressed as a drug reaction…not a escalation of the disease. That is what ethical medical practitioners do..psychiatry needs to do the same.
While the risk of suicide may be low(reality is we have no idea of the true numbers) that risk is real. To deny the patient and their family that vital piece of information is malpractice.
Matt
Psychiatric drugs have been shown time and again not to produce effective results. Some side effects include suicidal and homocidal ideation - the exact symptoms they are prescribed to handle in many cases. Psychiatric drugs have also been linked to school shootings, and other violent criimes.
People should be aware that the drugs they are taking come with serious risks and the Black Box warnings should remain in place.
There are proven non-drug methods of handling mental health issues, but since the money isn’t in it for Big Pharma and psychiatrists. Our government and the news media will not recognize them or give them the attention they deserve. Instead, our public is fed BS scientific data and news reports about the glory of prescription drugs and the promise of a better future through them.
Anyone who has done any serious research in to this issue knows that psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry could care less about healing emotional trauma, instead they care about their paychecks.
Stein
The box needs to stay.
Many moons ago, I was diagnosed as being “Clinically Depressed,” whatever that is. Anyhow, the Psychologist I was seeing for a totally different reason, and the MD she sent me to, bit wanted me on anti-depressants. However, neither one could tell me what it would do to me. When I asked, the MD stated, “I don’t know…That’s why they call it practicing medicine.” I was in my 20s at the time, so I am sure that they would have an even harder time telling what it would do to someone even younger.
If the box is removed, they need to remove the warning from the tobacco products. They have both been proven to be harmful to people’s health.
Mike
From a branch of “medicine”, or whatever they claim to be a part of, that cannot even define who they themselves are or do…. we truly have to be pretty bad off to ignore what the effects of their drugs are.
Black Box Labels are the first step in educating the public. So who wants the public uneducated?
Compare the drugging statistics to the education statistics of America. Surprise, surprise, surprise… They follow each other like a faithful dog it’s master.
So lets be real and wake up to the facts, the black box labels are necessary and my goodness, a right step in the right direction!
Linda
I’m a US expat living in Shropshire England. My recent book, Depression: healing emotional distress (Sheldon Press), contains many case studies of people for whom antidepressant drug treatment is damaging. The medicalizing of the human condition is not only risky but often deadly. My undepressed daughter Caitlin hanged herself after a few weeks on Prozac in 1998. Her reason for wanting the drug in the first place? An ad she saw on American television while on vacation.
Flavia Kreis
I don’t believe it.These drugs are dangerous the side effects are deadly, young people and adults are turning into killers and the FDA is thinking about to repeal the black box warning?
This is insane!
Ernest
It is completely unscientific and very much in psychiatry’s interest to attribute any rise in CDC reported teen suicides to the black box label on antidepressants. First of all. the black box warning was issued too late in 2004 to make a significant change in the number of teens on antidepressants. What would have to be studied is how many of these teens who committed suicide were already on an antidepressant or other psychiatric medication. To compenssate for the lost income from declining antidepressant sales, drug companies have been quick to urge psychiatrists to prescribe antipsychotics like Zyprexa which are also showing signs of causing kids to commit suicide and violent acts. Every person who commits suicide needs to have a toxicology screen done on them and the results made public. The vast majority of toxicology results I have seen or read about taken from a person who committed suicide showed they were on psychiatric drugs, usually an antidepressant like Prozac. These drugs cause people to commit suicide and there has been plenty of evidence to prove it..
Jared, PharmD, MS, BCPP
Jane:
I find it hard to believe that your daughter actually obtained a prescription for an antidepressant because of “An ad she saw on American television while on vacation.” If her physician really did give her a scrip based on that reason, he should be tried for malpractice and neglegent homicide.
The facts about antidepressants are very clear: they are prescription medications, and like all other medications, they have beneficial effects and they have adverse effects. Some of those benefits can be really great for some patients, and some of those adverse effects can be truly dreadful — and possibly fatal — for some patients.
Put simply: every patient must balance the potential risks and potential benefits of ANY medication they are contemplating taking — whether it be birth control (fatal outcomes for some patients), antibiotics (fatal outcomes for some patients), medications for heart disease (fatal outcomes for some patients) or psych medications (fatal outcomes for some pateints).
Just because psych meds have a potential association with rare severe adverse events, possibly including death by suicide, does not mean they should be taken off the market. They should remain available, with proper and appropriate labeling based on the best available science.
People need to stop picking on psych patients and the medications they take, as though they are any different than any other class of medications for any other patient.
Stigma and discrimination are alive and well in the world today.
Carolyn Meece
Actually much of psychiatry is organized crime. One can see that these “Caretakers” suffer from Munchausen Syndrome by Prozy because they see things that are not there. Much of psychiatry is “Enterprise Corruption” and “Racketeering”. They act like children when they argue, throw tantrume, go into their rages, back talk, and etc. They argue about anything and everything in order to hold the hostage longer. In many cases “Aggravated Kidnapping” takes place on fraudulent petitions with false witnesses. Many involve themselves in a conspiracy against the “Victim of Violent Crime” and the hostages mind is splintered in a thousands pieces then they take their psychotic and delusional hands off the ‘Victim of Violent Crime”. They are cowards and do things the cowards way. To them it is more important to save the child molester, rapist, criminal, corrupt official, Gestapo, so-called fake healing mister, and etc. Much of psychiatry is fake healing, with false labels, defrauded records, and the mind rape and mind altering drugs that go along with that fake label in order to make the ends justify the means. It amounts to “Soviet-style Psychiatric Terrorism” and “Trauma-based Mind Control”. They use fear, terror, and violence and promote violence. They feel they can tell our abusers that it is ok to do whatever the want. They certainly tell us that we cannot do anything about the abuse and criminal activity. By reading the defrauded records it sounds like they either have voices in their heads or answer their own questions. They are willing to go to court and lie just for the money. Much of psychiatry is pseudo-science, wicked witchcraft, mad doctoring, fake healing, con game, and a sham. They are not interested in helping a “Victim of Violent Crime” period. They refuse to allow the “Victim of Violent Crime” to have any real supporters. If anyone tries to help them survive and stand up for his/her rights, they will run them out or threaten to arrest them. The long stays are not because the “Victim of Violent Crime” is suicidal or has any so-called mental illness. They long stays are for brainwashing and “Ultimate Identity Theft”. Many are only interested in the perks and kickbacks involving this “Bedlam”. I understand that the boss gets mad if the beds are not filled. They will hold a person hostage during holidays, Birthdays, and many times the same month and date will be repeated in different years. What I see is they repeat the cycle ever 3-4 years or more using some concocted story that would never hold up in a court of law so they have to concoct a false emergency.
Kevin Hall
This study is bogus and you are putting kids at risk with this false information. The increase in suicides for children was in 2004. The FDA black box warnings weren’t created until October 15, 2004. Antidepressant usage on children actually increased in 2004 which is what you would expect — the increase in child suicides coincided an increase in child antidepressant prescriptions. The FDA was right when their studies determined that these dangerous drugs would double suicidality in children.
Noel
I was pleased to hear that the FDA had placed a black box warning on drugs that may or can cause suicide. In my experience so-called “anti-depressants” are far too easily obtained and pushed.
Also, children are different from adults and a drug is the last thing I would try to change my child’s mood or ability to learn. The first things that should be tried are plenty of nutritional food and sleep and getting rid of the empty calories in white sugar and flour. Also, find out why the child is having trouble in class by TALKING with the child. Don’t put them on a pill.
Lastly, the FDA and psychs are saying the use of antipressants are down but the suicides are up and they think that may be because of the black box labels. That is an incomplete and incorrect analysis.
The FDA should be glad that scripts for antidepressants are down. They should be alarmed that suicides are up, in my opinion. There are many possible reasons for this. The drugs that are being prescribed may be worse than the ones in the previous years. They are constantly coming out with new ones. Is the most likely reason I can think of besides the public just becoming more educated about the side effects and ineffectivness of putting kids on drugs.
Why less scripts? Hopefully, it is because parents, teachers and doctors are being more careful and cautious about just putting our children on drugs. I hope it is because other less lazy methods are being tried to solve their problems with a child that doesn’t sit quietly and conform to the idea of what a “good child or student” should be.
As I mentioned earlier, hopefully children with difficulties are getting exams from health care professionals and being communicated with to determine the real source of their problems.
This is my opinion as a former professional nanny, and child of a school psychologist who got a medical doctor to prescribe ritilan for child without doing a thorough exam of the child first. Fortunately, that child only took the ritilan once because it agitated her so much and she had someone who listened and cared about her and allowed her to stop taking the pill. Otherwise she might not be around today.
That child’s only problem was that she was not getting enough sleep because she was taking care of her younger sister who had health problems in the middle of the night.
That child was me.
Doug
Jared you wrote
“Just because psych meds have a potential association with rare severe adverse events, possibly including death by suicide, does not mean they should be taken off the market. They should remain available, with proper and appropriate labeling based on the best available science.”
Well your last sentence says it all!!! These drugs aren’t based on science. The is no blood, urine, xray cat scan or any other type of test that can prove that a brain chemical imbalance exhists. So if that is the theory that these “wonderful” drugs are based on then it should be able to be proven in SCIENCE. The American public is being duped into believing that this chemical imbalance is a proven thing and I would wager a guess that some of the doctors that prescribe these poisions don’t even know that there is no research to support it.
There is no good reason for this stuff to be on the market base on anything but profit. The don’t cure anything they just dehumanize people and put them out of there head. Please take a little time and do some research for yourself and don’t just listen to what the drug companies and the Psychs are telling you.
Jocelyne Boerma
Leave the Black Box warning alone !!
John Klatt
When was the last time a Black Box Warning did anything to slow dow the utilization. It has little impact with physicians anymore. As long as they are available, they will be used. There needs to be harsher warnings that force physicians to think twice before writing an Rx. Maybe a signed consent from the patient/parent saying that they understand the complete risk/benifit ratio.
Barbara Colaianni
To Jared, PharmD, MS, BCPP
You probably got into phramacology because you wanted to help people. Then you find out it’s all about money. It must be tough to live inside the industry that makes the most money when it can’t FIX the problem. You have to “justify” selling people chemicals you know won’t help and can kill. How many of your customers report “Wow, that psych drug helped me solve all my problems! They don’t exist now! I’ve handled all the affairs and people who were driving me ‘crazy’ and it’s all because of that magic pill! It was worth the chance that I might die, or murder someone!”
Chas
I just love the TV commercial that starts out stating “70% of all anti-depressants are proven not to work. It’s time for a change . . . try our anti-depressant!”
Whoa! Wait a minute! 70% DON’T work and are potentially harmful and even deadly? Do they think that the general public is that stupid not to see right through the “beautiful” advertising campaign? If the Government wasn’t bank-rolling Psyco-iatry would anyone pay for it out of their own pockets? I think not! It is the LAST treatment of choice for most of the population.
Most are told that they have to be on anti-depressant meds and in some states a parent can have their child taken away from them if they don’t put their kids on the drugs. They are told that there is no other solution for whatever problem is being faced and because they lack any data otherwise, agree to a potentially life-threatening form of “treatment”. There are workable solutions that will better the individual. Find out for yourself! THINK FOR YOURSELF!!!
I was put on a very mild doseage of anti-depressants about 20 years ago when in the military. After two weeks, I threw the stuff down the toilet because I realized what it was doing to my mind. I had ZERO emotions and NO RESPONSIBILITY for my actions. I wasn’t suicidal, but I went from at least tying to be a good person, to one that was totally irresponsible and I ruined the lives of a wife and several girlfriends. Don’t mention my name around their parents, they’d hang me from the nearest tree! For 11 years I created upsets, hurt people emotionally, betrayed my friends, worked poorly on the job; I could go on. All from two short weeks on a “mild anti-depressant”. Before the drugs, I was Class President, a star athlete and one of the most successful members of various groups and activities that I belonged to.
Today, I found workable solutions through Scientology and am held in high regard by my friends and have been happily married for over ten years.
I was willing to take responsibility for my actions and myself. Now, I am the person that I always knew I could be and I’m helping others achieve thier goals of a happy life. It did not come from a pill, which is the route of complete irresponsibility and unwillingness to confront and LIVE life.
Only the insane or criminally inclined would attack or try to harm something that really does help people. Scientology - Something can be done about it!
Sharon Hillestad
I remember several decades ago when the FDA all but wrecked the cranberry industry alerting people to some pseudo-danger from that food. Amazing that the FDA should be so concerned about the drug makers when they had no sympathy for the farmers. Put the black box warning on all pschotropic medication. It is the least that can be done when companies are licensed to injure in the name of help.
Doretta Hegg
Hello,
The bottom line Question on all the pyshcotropic medications being used in our American population is: WHY? Why do we need a pill to cure ills that have no solid scientific basis to them? Lets bring back family unity, exercise, healthy eating habits, common sense and less stress. We rank 37 in Standards of Health care. Other countries consume less meds and are more healthy. Let’s learn from good examples from other countries who do a better job of health care for their citizens. Studies/numbers can always be spun the wrong direction by special interest groups who stand to financially profit by increasing our needs on meds rather than healthy changes.
Thank you
Doretta
David McGuire
Psychiatrist Tom Laughren, the FDA official, needs a dose of reality.
His colleague, David Shaffer of the infamous TeenScreen (google that folks!) did a study that found that kids who took their own lives were 15 times more likely to have been on antidepressants. See here: http://tinyurl.com/2ydfk7
On October 16, 2004 the FDA ordered pharmaceutical companies to add the black box warning on antidepressants.
Yet suicides in 2004 are blamed on the black box warning?
I wonder if Laughren finds any of that evidence “compellingâ€
Margaret Korzie
Bullied in school, my son was diagnosed as depressed. He was put on Prozac. He became manic, we were told he was misdiagnosed, and was in fact, Bi-polar. My son was seeing a counselor once a week, a private psychologist once a month, and (after his first suicide attempt) attending an outpatient program at the hospital five days a week.His medication was monitored, increased here and there. Prozac was changed to Paxil,more psychotropic medications were added, Seroquel, Triliptal and Trazodone. We were told he needed these medications to keep him in the proper brain chemical BALANCE. Despite all this care, not one of the, so called, professionals saw the last suicide attempt coming.
Thats when we did the research. A common side effect of SSRI’s is MANIA, therefore, Bi-polar should NEVER be diagnosed in patients taking SSRI’s. My sons first suicide attempt should have been a red flag. I wish that the BLACK BOX WARNING was on the Prozac back then. Maybe we would have been more aware of the dangers, and what to look for. My son is now a medication free young man, trying to cope daily, with nine months of AD hell in his past.
Joe McCusker
Please keep the black box warnings on the drugs. It’s the very least we can do to protect our children. Hopefully, some day a safe alternative to such drugs will be found. Meanwhile, we should certainly not trust pharmaceutical companies as their track record shows them to be far from trustworthy.
Diane
THE BLACK BOX WARNING MUST STAY!!!!!!
Question1: How many of these insane experts have put their own childred on their killer drugs?
Question2: How many of these so called experts have been willing to let one or more of their family members be used as lab rats to test their killer drugs?
QUESTION 3: HOW MANY CHILDREN, ELDERLY OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER HAVE TO DIE AS A RESULT OF THESE KILLER DRUGS BEFORE OUR GOVEMENT STEPS IN AND SAYS ENOUGH??????
Sorry one more question - HOW MUCH MONEY WILL IT TAKE BEFORE THE DRUG COMPANIES AND THEIR DISTRUBUTORS STOP KILLING THE FURTUR LEADERS?
jayne
And just who is it that paid for this study?hmmmm leave the black box warning alone!
Tony Miller
In my 40 years as a hairstylist I can’t believe the devastation that is being caused by psychiatry and anti-depressants. Hairdressers actually listen to people and we hear and see the true results of “mental health professionals”.It is alarming. Parents are actually putting toddlers on these dangerous drugs that even the FDA warns against. I have never anything but chaos result from turning to drugs as the answer to all life’s problems.
Keep the ‘black box warnings as a minimum. Handcuffs for psychiatrists and some pharmaceutical CEO’s would be in order for anyone else that caused the deaths of so many.
David McGuire
According to the Newsweek article, the research was “partly funded by Prozac maker Eli Lilly”.
No surprise.
Ernest
The Black Box warnings on antidepressants need to stay. In fact they need to be expanded to state that not only can antidepressants cause suicidal ideation and suicide, they can also cause homicidal ideation and homicidal acts such as Virginia Tech, Red Lake, Columbine and the hundreds of school and workplace shootings that have been carried out by people on antidepressants. How can any “medical professional” compare the side-effects of antidepressants to other medications. True, some other drugs have a risk of causing harm but what other drug causes the user to kill innocent bystanders? One of the most important reasons to keep that Black Box labeling in place is to protect and give notice to all the innocent people who are NOT on antidepressants but who have to be around people who are so we can decide if we want our kids to be around them or we want them in our homes or so we can avoid getting into a confrontation with them that might result in violence, ie: road rage.
As to the Black Box label causing increased suicides in 2004 consider this: On 15 October 2004 the FDA issued a “Public Health Advisory to warn the public about the increased risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior (”suicidality”) in children and adolescents being treated with antidepressant medications.” It went on to say, “The agency is directing manufacturers to add a “black box” warning to the health professional labeling of all antidepressant medications…” The complete advisory can be found at http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/NEW01124.html.
Now consider this. The drug companies got official notice on 15 October 2004 to put the black box on antidepressant labeling. How long do you think it took to have new packaging made? Do you think they put that labeling in place any faster than they had to? How long do you think it took to sell all the old medications sitting in pharmacies, hospitals, distributors and at the factory? It would take months and months. I think anyone with half a brain (psychiatrists excluded) can say that the public received no significant warning during any part of 2004 that antidepressants can cause suicide. So who are these “mental health professionals” running around claiming the increased rates of teen suicides in 2004 as reported by the CDC were caused by Black Box warnings on antidepressants. I’ll tell you who many of them are. Many of them come right out of the psychiatry department of Columbia University–a department that continually fronts for pharmaceutical companies and a place that should be thoroughly investigated to see who there has received compensation or consideration from drug companies. This is the same place that has spawned the much-opposed and despised TeenScreen program that is attempting to assembly-line the diagnosis of hundreds of thousands of school kids as having mental disorders needing psychiatric treatment–and of course putting them on psychiatric medication follows that. When I think of lowly places inhabited by those willing to sell out the future of the human race–our children– I think of the psychiatry department at Columbia.
Quite likely, 2004 or 2003 marked the point of the highest number of antidepressants prescibed to teens. The increased teen suicides in 2004 may well have resulted from the record number of kids put on antidepressants in the years leading up to that point. In truth, every suicide needs to have a full toxicology screening done that checks for the presence of antidepressants and other psychiatric drugs–especially the antipsychotics like Zyprexa, Geodon, Risperdal and Seroquel. That is the only way we can avoid burying the evidence and the only way we can go back and nail a lawsuit on every drug company executive and mental health practitioner who actively worked to put people on antidepressants after October 15th, 2004. These people have morals no higher than the former SS of Nazi Germany, and they need to be identified, investigated and treated as such.
tom
Come on - a hairdresser didn’t just weigh in on this did he???? That makes me feel a little better about my position - I am on the opposite side of the fence. Has anyone been to Walgreen’s lately, or Target, or Wal-mart, or really anywhere? What percentage of people do you see that you say likely has some psych or mental “issue”? My guess is a lot. That’s just me, but I see a lot of people with a lot of problems. Yes, I think that number grows every year because of the society we live in, not the medications that people take. THERE ARE CRAZY PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. Some will hurt themselves, some will hurt others.
If you actually look at the studies you will see that there are no better results with psychotherapy. So if psych therapy doesn’t work, meds don’t work, what is the answer? If these people are treated at all - just sent home to work out there issues, will they just get better on their own? Then who will you guys sue and blame all of your problems on?
tom
Hey I just read thru the rest of the comments - I am on the opposite side of a hairdresser AND a Scientologist! Do the rest of you want to rethink your position, or should I assume you all cut hair or are a member of a cult?
WOW, cult man - 2 weeks of an antidepressant that couldn’t of even built up a decent concentration - AD take 4-6 weeks to work, especially the TCA you were given 20 years ago. 2 weeks ruined your life AND caused you to join a cult?
Wait, I am on your side. If taking a med caused me to join Cruisology I would sue the drug company as well! I hate to say it - many of the posters do need professional help. Please, before you hurt someone, seek help. Especially if considering doing something drastic like giving your house to help a movie star.
Wes Larson
Come on now Tom,..making the ad hominen agrument…making fun of a person and thier profession.
Do you think you are better than someone else? You are not arguing the facts…you are arguing that the person is a hairdresser…so therefore..what…they don’t know anything…shame on you. In logic 101 this is not a valid reason to discredit someone.
If someone speaks the truth, just because you don’t like them, it is still the truth.
If a “crazy” person saw a crime and reported it would we discredit what he saw because he is crazy…ad hominen
Debra
At age 17 my mother tried to murder me while on a psychiatric drug which had her in a daze. Leave the black box alone!
tom
Wes,
If I made a comment about a hairstyle - I am way out of what I am competent to comment on. Since this is my area - medicine - I AM BETTER equipped to comment on this than a graduate of a 3 month vo-tech degree. Years of learning about medication and able to interpret the medical literature.
Debra, your mom was 17 and tried to murder you. So let’s try to figure out when she got pregnant - 14,15,16? I am sure she did not have any other medical issues. Pregnant at 14, on medication. And this was well before the popularity of antidepressants was rampant. This was also not the SSRI class, as this was well before Prozac was available. So my advice to you is to recommend that Elavil be given a black box. Again, sorry, this is out of your area of expertise as well.
You guys are actually making it too easy! Where are the cult defenders? Or are there just hairdresser defenders?
I am actually happy to debate the facts - and it does seem like there are a couple of actually well informed on the anti pharma angle. But for someone to report from their post as a hairdresser does not qualify as fact.
lisa loring
Mr. Pharmacology (Tom), exactly which branch of medicine do you practice? Re-read the literature, the risk of suicidality is GREATEST within the FIRST 2 weeks of starting an SSRI, or after an increase in dose..btw, I am not a Scientologist and I actually am a Health Care Practitioner, so maybe I am debatable? This is about Pharmacology and Pathopysiology NOT Religion or Philosophy. (I am thankful to all of my Scientology friends who opened my eyes to the dangers of Psychiatry..and did NOT get me into their “cult”. PUH-Lease)
tom
There is a risk of suicide in all these patients, and there is a small window that a patient may go threw on the road to recovery. It is thought that these patients may get more energy before their mood improves. This could possibly give them energy to have a suicide attempt. So the answer is to watch that awful John Travolta space movie instead?
Lisa, you are actually in the HC field, so tell me what is the answer? I am the first to say that the current meds are not ideal - but they are the best we have. Since we still can not properly identify exactly what happens in the brain, we have the amine theory and that’s about it. If we can’t properly identify how this occurs, it is harder to treat. We have to rely on what has helped and worked in some patients. Until you come up with a better treatment, isn’t it better to help these patients with what we have?
I agree the greatest risk of suicide in any patient is when they finally break down and try to get help. They realize that they could be a danger to themselves and others. Psychotherapy is no more effective and cults are definitely not the answer.
tom
Here is an interesting link. I highlights the link between Scientology and suicides. WOW!!! Meds are actually safer than I thought! There are actually way too many people to count. Great write up though. See the danger of the internet - everyone’s issues are there to see.
I am next looking up the link between hairstyles and suicides, link to come soon.
http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/suicide1.htm
Shelley Abate
Please leave the Black Box Warning Labels in place. The public has the right to know about “all” possible side affects of medications. With so many violent shootings (especially on campuses) proving out that the shooters were medicated, it would be irresponsible to not at least “WARN” consumers.
tom
Shelley, the VT shooter had no meds in his body. But he still killed 32. People should take responsibility and know what they are putting in their body.
I am echoing the sentiments stated earlier - the black box warning does nothing except excite the public. Even though they have no idea what it really means. When is the last time your doctor stopped and looked up a package insert to see if the drug he was considering had a black box?
The public can look up generally any package insert online - what difference does the black box make - except lawyers rich?
Nadine Seidita
I find it appalling that the FDA would look into recalling a Black Box Warning as a result of sales dropping for these drugs. It is NOT the job of the FDA to promote sales of ANY drug yet it is appearing more and more likely that not only are they looking to “help” promote these drugs but are perhaps “in” with a majority of these parmaceutical companies INSTEAD of looking out for the safety of Americans who are taking these drugs. Shameful and unethical.
tom
Again - What does the black box mean? Nothing, it will have no impact on prescribing outside of the publicity generated by the media.
Steve Helgeson
Psychiatric drugs are linked to suicidal (and homicidal) thoughts and behaviors in teenagers. In fact, they are linked to these and many, many other adverse reactions in all age groups.
The FDA has an Adverse Event Reporting System in place where physicians, pharmacists, lawyers, other health care providers and consumers can report adverse drug events.
See http://www.psychdrugdangers.com wherein I have collected and tabulated the thousands of adverse event reports on psychiatric drugs sent to the FDA over the past three years.
In particular, see the dechallenge / rechallenge page (the “Causal Link: Psych Drug -> Reaction” link in the sidebar). “Dechallenge” means the withdrawal of a product from a patient’s therapeutic regimen. “Rechallenge” is the reintroduction of a product suspected of having caused an adverse event following a positive dechallenge.
You will see that for the 13-19 year old age group alone, 90 out of 110 Suicidal Ideations linked to a psychiatric drug ceased after dechallenge (the patient stopped taking the drug).
The FDA has done a good job in identifying the dangers of psychiatric drugs, requiring Black Box Warnings. If anything, it missed a few that should have been also labeled as inducing suicidal thoughts and behaviors in children and young adults.
If Tom Laughren of the FDA is considering repealing the Black Box Warnings, he needs to first carefully review the data in the FDA’s own Adverse Event Reporting System database which validates the original decision to assign the Warnings.
In the Hippocratic Oath it says:
“To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death”
These drugs are deadly.
tom
Does that include the Strattera? I saw that listed a lot. How many were SSRI vs. antipsychotics, antihistamines, ADHD drugs?
Rosie
Antidepressants can cause mania & psychosis according to the Physicians Desk Reference. This is not listed as a rare side-effect either.
This widespread use of antidepressants is causing havoc in our society as demonstrated by the increase in major school shootings, murder-suicides and other bizarre tragidies - especially the increase in the diagnosis of bipolar disorder - the majority of which are caused by people taking antidepressants and then going ‘manic’ on the drug and being diagnosed as manic-dperessive [bipolar]. Most of this is an artifically induced/ chemically induced mania from the antidepressants.
Go to http://www.ssristories.com to view a list of over 1,700 such tragedies with the full media article available.
Sylvia
Interesting that Jason posts the suicide statistics for 2003-2004 going up. The black box warning labels did not start until 2004 so that statistics were BEFORE the warning labels went on. Completely apples and oranges.
tom
Rosie, congratulations on actually picking up something that is medically related! Sure people can be misdiagnosed. This isn’t the fault of the drug. Medications need to be properly used. And you have to find the proper doctor. There isn’t a blood test to determine if you are crazy.
I don’t believe Bipolar is caused by antidepressants, it may reveal itself when given ADs. Most people don’t complain or recognize mania in themselves. I would actually love to have a little bit of mania - I would be happy, greater energy, need less sleep.
Again, happy healthy people don’t get put on psych meds - These are people with problems. Please keep in mind that a certain percent of our population will be an issue regardless of meds. Whether that is homicidal, suicidal, criminal - you see medicated and non-medicated suffering from the same problems.
Steve Helgeson
Tom,
Yep. Strattera, which is a brand name for Atomoxetine, does carry the Black Box Warning label. Click on the X in the Black Box Warning column to see the label.
I haven’t tallied how many are SSRI’s, etc. (You’re welcome to do that; it would be an interesting statistic.) That wasn’t (still isn’t) my interest. What I was interested in was finding any hard facts that psychiatric drug were dangerous. I found them on the FDA’s website.
Larry
Let’s clean up how these drugs are being prescribed. I think doctors need to be told that they actually need to read the black box warnings and not ignore them at the behest of pharmaceutical marketeers. If they have been given grant/gratuity money with the intent that they ignore the black box label warnings then they need to admit such to their patients and/or inform their patient of any grant/gratuity money they have been given by a drug company to prescribe a particular drug. That if they still want to prescribe the drug to inform they patient that the patient can see another doctor for a 2nd opinion if that patient so desires.
Jason
Lisa,
Yes, I take care of patients and have dedicated my life to improving the lives of the people who come to me. I am a rural, country doc. I live too far away to even be a target of any drug company. I prescribe about 80% generic medications and don’t use samples. So I am not in bed with the pharma industry, but at the same time I am grateful that they have helped me practice medicine at a higher level with better results.
I read the literature and draw my own conclusions. I am likely the only doc in the country who never used Vioxx, Ketek, or Bextra. I mention that to say I don’t write because of hype, and I have a critical eye for the data.
I gladly admit that psych is one area that I struggle with. Why - there is no gold standard to be able to identify those at risk of suicide or those with depression/bipolar, etc. This is a difficult area, admittedly. That being said, I have put many patients (not adolescents or children) on SSRI’s with fair results. My practice is fairly close to the data - about 50% success rates with one SSRI. I wish we had a better option, but you have to help someone coming to you with a problem if you have a potential solution.
So I refer many psych issues out to specialists. They are better equipped to indentify and treat patients. I keep up with the literature and give great care. And since I do not want to be a lightning rod for lawsuits - I wouldn’t prescribe an antidepressant for a child, I refer them on. I don’t know what I would do if they refused the consult. They obviously need treatment, and if they wouldn’t seek it on their own I would be forced to help. It would obviously be a case/case decision, and I don’t know which direction I would take. I have seen non-medicated children take their lives, and I know I would feel awful if I didn’t at least try to help. So fortunately I have not had to make that decision.
Vacation was great, now back to improving the lives of those around me.
Lisa and Melody - your voice is needed here in this discussion as it looks as if people with different agendas have taken over the discussion board!! I disagreed with you, but it was an intelligent discussion with facts.
Jason
Lisa,
Also, I hope I never stated that I was sure that it was safe to give these meds to patients. I truly don’t know if it is or not. This is truly a gray area in medicine. I do believe they help more than they hurt, but as stated above, I don’t treat troubled children.
I can not in good conscience state that all children will do great on Paxil, but at the same time I don’t think you can state that some patients aren’t helped by the meds. Like everything in medicine, there is not black and white, and everyone is different. Many times, very different!
I do hope we get good solid data in the near future that will guide us. As I hope to be able to better help my patients. I don’t think you can paint a broad brush and say if a drug company sponsors a study it makes it bad. Remember a couple years back with hormone replacement. PremPro was a huge drug for Wyeth (makers of Effexor). They did some long term studies and found that the risk was greater than the benefit for many patients. They published and alerted physicians of the data and cost themselves Billions of dollars. So it isn’t always just about the $$$, otherwise they never would have started the study, let alone publish it.
They are in business to sell though, I freely admit that. But their breakthroughs over time have allowed us to live a better quality of life and extend it. So in this case, the risk/benefit ratio for drug companies as a whole is good in my eyes.
Your country doc
tom
Steve,
I guess this was a debate about the safety of SSRI’s, and many of those were not SSRI’s. ADH is a whole separate issue. And how is Atarax a psych med? It gets rid of my hives.
No interest in tallying the numbers - just wanted to make sure that people with no medical background knew that all of those were not the meds being discussed.
If we really want to muddy the issue let’s discuss autism and the MMR vaccine. Let’s let the homeschoolers go wild on that one
Rena Goodrich
You don’t get rid of the railroad track protective arms and red lights because they might rattle drivers.
Ergo.
Retain the warming labels.
Rena
tom
If the RR crossing caused people from not driving their cars you might consider it. And if you stay at your house, it would make you miserable and possibly cost you your life - to extend on your analogy. Getting hit by a train is always a bad thing. Taking an SSRI is not always a bad thing, actually it only rarely is harmful. Like all meds, there is always a risk of bad results. If aspirin was a brand new med there is no way it would get approved by the FDA, yet we think nothing of picking up a bottle at the WalMart.
AND AGAIN, the only real thing that a black box does is create a target for lawsuits. I am only surprised I haven’t heard a radio ad for a Paxil lawsuit like I do on Avandia. Maybe I have and just tuned it out though.
Doug
Tom,
A “Homeschooler” here. Maybe you could enlighten us with where the science is to prove that there is such a thing as a chemical imbalance in the brain? Last I knew you had to prove what you say about disease. Opps did I say disease sorry I mean “Disorder”. Disorder is what they have to call it since it can’t be proven right?
tom
Dougie, welcome to the discussion, is this nap time at home?
I think if you look up higher in the discussion, there is an “Amine theory”. That is all we have to go on. Like many things in medicine, not quite the same as basic science, we can’t just dice up people and see what is happening. We have to learn on observation in humans. There is no test you can run to find out what is exactly wrong, so there is no gold standard med for all people, especially in psych. If you can get in your garage lab and figure it out with the kids for science class today, please do and help us all out. All we really know is these meds help a portion of patients, the others are helped with other or multiple meds. Some are not helped at all and a small portion get bad results. If the bad outweighed the good, no one would use them and this wouldn’t be a discussion because they wouldn’t be on the market. There is not a great answer out there, that is the problem. These are one of the best tools available.
Again, I love people who can only point out the shortcomings. YOU ARE ALL RIGHT, these are not the greatest drugs in the world, just the best we have right now. If there is a better answer, again outside of cults, please provide it.
Laurie
Another medical professional here…oh, yeah, and I’m a WASP. While I have to agree that the black box by itself doesn’t mean much to the uninformed public, it does generate the mandate for a Medication Guide, albeit a very watered down one that is rarely distributed. At least the distribution of the Medication Guide could warn parents of potentially lethal behaviors to watch for. If I had the Medication Guide, my son’s Paxil use would have ended at 3 months, instead of 14 months and three dosage increases.
The old “they have the energy to commit suicide” argument would be accurate IF we didn’t have this category of drugs being prescribed for a multitude of situations. Last time I checked migraines, IBS, anxiety and test taking phobia didn’t have a symptom of suicide.
The FDA Medwatch program has reports of suicidal/homicidal ideation across the diagnostic spectrum..It’s very sad that these reports of adverse reactions are discounted as “anecdotal”, while the “anecdotal” reports of efficacy are reported as fact.
My goal in speaking out on this is to inform parents. If they choose to allow their child to take an ssri, that is their choice. BUT that choice should be made fully informed of the true risk benefit ratio. They should know that their mildly anxious child didn’t turn “bipolar” overnight after starting an ssri.
In medicine when a sudden change in condition results after the introduction of a new drug, the FIRST thing that is looked at is the drug.. Why, in psychiatry, does this not result in removal of the possible offending substance, instead of the addition of a new diagnosis? If psychiatry is going to claim a biological component to depression, they are going to be held to the same standard as the rest of medicine.
Doug
Thanks Tommie,
Thanks for making me wrong for pointing out that non of these drugs have any science to prove that there is such a thing as a chemical imbalance. Nice job!!!
The president of the APA (American Psychiatric Association for those that didn’t know) has stated in front of congress that “they don’t know what causes mental illness… and don’t know how to cure it”. So that being said your comment earlier about people “being on the road to recovery” might be a dead end road.
The short comings that need to be pointed out are the ones that most of the posts on this thread are doing is that the drugs just mask the real problem they don’t handle it, they don’t cure it. They just cover it up so it doesn’t seem like a problem any more. That’s not real help!
Next comment please Tommie….he he could resist
tom
again, if you can figure it out, you have an entire industry and a good chunk of the population waiting. I think I stated that clearly up front. We are together on this one, we don’t know why people are crazy, and no idea how to fix everyone. But there is evidence that the SSRI (and TCA’s and even MAOI’s) help a chunk of patients. Hell, we can even show that ECT (shock therapy for you movie fans) works pretty well - especially for those that are the most depressed.
Remember, for a drug to be approved it has to be proven to be safe and effective. Not necessarily prove exactly how the disease model works. So these meds have been proven to work for some patients - not all patients.
Ok, if we follow your logic, should we not even try to cover up the problem. Just let people stay in a funk? Since some patients actually improve on these meds, what would you do to these people? Just tell them since we don’t know for sure exactly why they are depressed, they have to stay that way until we have an exact disease model figured out and a lab test to definitively prove that they are depressed.
I don’t think that these meds “just mask the real problem, they don’t cure it”. These meds help a subset of patients. They feel better, they are more productive, they are actually able to cope with life again. Hey it would be better to have a better answer, but again, this is the best we got.
Oh wait, I just remembered - they did figure out all diseases including depression. But, the answer would put drug companies out of business, so they are keeping it secret. Damn those drug companies!
Dougie - so why do some people feel better and WANT to continue taking their SSRI? Are they dumb? Do they not really feel better? Tell them they aren’t benefitting from their meds and to fix their problem.
Hey I would love to keep this up all day - but I have to go out and be a productive member of society now. Good luck hashing this one out kids.
tom
Laurie, if you are a med professional and you couldn’t figure this out without a plain language handout that you wouldn’t read when you got the scrip filled– I DON’T WANT YOU INVOLVED IN MY CARE AT ALL!!!!! Med guides are just as ignored as the info sheet you get from the pharmacy, they won’t matter and likely won’t get passed out.
And psych is a little different that the rest of medicine if you haven’t figured that out yet. There are no definitive tests, pts feel different all the time with or without changing meds. People just feel different for no reason.
And if you don’t know why these are called anecdotal - you are beyond my help. Do a quick search and find out what an anecdotal reaction is.
Psychiatry has the amine theory and nothing else. If we aren’t going to call it a biologic cause, should we instead call it genetic, or environmental or just “plain nuts”? Look at the mountain of data that shows these drugs - MAOI, TCA, SSRI, atypicals - work in some patients. Not all, some. But all work in some set of patients and those people are glad to have their meds. If you really take a look at the mountains of data and feel that they are more harmful than helpful, we will have to agree to disagree.
I hope your son is doing better!
Laurie
“if you are a med professional and you couldn’t figure this out without a plain language handout that you wouldn’t read when you got the scrip filled– I DON’T WANT YOU INVOLVED IN MY CARE AT ALL!!!!! ”
Not that I need to defend my position, seeing as I watched this reaction firsthand with my child, but if you read the 2002 PDR, you will find NONE of the information that is available today. You are arguing YOUR point with information that only came out in the recent FDA hearings when it was brought out by the reporting by parents.If the 2002 PDR information was unchanged the main side effect of Paxil would still be diarrhea. No, I dont need a “plain language” guide to give me information. But there are millions of ssri users that have the right to that “plain language” information.
Psychiatry has many “theories”, sadly most are just that…theory. When their own commercials conflict with their earlier claims of efficacy (”70 % of those taking an antidepressant don’t feel any better”) you have to question their motives, well at least I do.
People will always take these drugs. Parents will allow their children to take these drugs. All I want is full disclosure of risk, something I didn’t have. Obviously you would rather leave parents in the dark….just like the PDR did in 2002.
Biglizard
What are you people discussing?
Psychiatry says outright “They do not know what causes “depression!” The drug companies state, in their own TV commercials in California, “although we do not know what causes depression we belive…”
So a couple of people got lucky and are “helped” by the insane drugs. I will bet, if they did a study, more people were “helped” by doing absolutly NOTHING!
There is no discussion here as their own scientific papers admit psychiatrists know nothing about “mental illness” however, “they belive”…. Junk, psudo sience by their own admition. ABSOLUTLY no facts. (They havent even figuerd out what the brain is or does.)
Psychiatrists, or anyone, who prescibe these drugs know this, that makes them murderers!!!! End of debate!
Rosie
If you are interested in scientific studies which show the harm that can be caused by raising serotonin levels in the brains, then go to
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php
and scroll down to the two plus signs [++] under “Additional”. Here you wil find 11 research articles, some of which have appeared in Journals, others in newspapers, that show for example: 1. Serotonin levels are already 9 times higher in unmedicated anxious people than they are in unmedicated normal people. 2. An excess of serotonin in the brain can cause mayhem 3. SSRIs & LSD share same mechanisms in one important respect 4. SSRIs increase the serotonin receptor linked to suicide and 5. Over 200,000 people a year are hospitalized with antidepressant induced mania & psychosis.
By clicking on the Blue Column in the left hand side of the page, a person can view the full article or media report.
Biglizard
Rosie,
My God. I new these drugs were pretty bad but, I am speechless!
I cannot believe psychiatry is allowed to push their deadly snake oil! (I am still speechless)
Steve Helgeson
Tom,
You may use Atarax for you hives, but it is also prescribed for general anxiety disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyzine and others, just google Atarax).
And maybe it did do a good job on your hives, but it was also reported as the Primary Suspect Drug in over two dozen suicide attempts between 2004 and 2006 on patients aged 13 through 46.
Please do your research before you just attack.
If you find a legitimate error in the data I posted on psychdrugdangers, I’d be happy to correct it. My intent for the website is to provide the information about adverse psychiatric drug reactions that the FDA has received through Medwatch that has not been made available to the general public anywhere else that I’ve seen.
The data that I used for the website is available for download from the FDA’s website, but it’s not of much use in its raw form, existing in seven unjoined text file tables; it takes a database programmer (which I am by profession) to link the various tables together to get useful information out of it.
And I don’t think “anecdotal” (with its implication of “unreliable” or “hearsay”) is a correct label for the reports. Sure, there are a number of reports from consumers that may be unreliable from a medical standpoint even if they are from the person who experienced the adverse reaction, but a large percentage of the reports (and no, I didn’t bother to calculate the percentages of what profession reported what) came from physicians, pharmacists and other health care professionals. Their professional views about causality are anecdotal? And there’s the dechallenge table (see earlier post) where the drug is essentially reporting on itself - “you stop giving me to that patient and I stop creating the adverse reaction”.
You seem to imply that I or anyone else who points out the documented destructive, often deadly, conseqences of taking psychiatric drugs are alarmists or fault-finders.
I think that a “treatment” that can (and does) kill is cause for alarm, and that a greedy “doctor” and pharmaceutical industry that prescribes or makes for prescription a “medication” (look up the word - it means to administer a remedy to) that harms or kills the patient should be held accountable, found fault with if you will.
Biglizard
What happend? Where did all the “health professionals” go? I wanted to ask the one who stated “we do not know why people are crazy and no idea how to fix everyone…”
I just have one question…..WHAT!?!
So your profession,psychiatry, has decide to “try” electric shock, ice picks in the brain, insulin shock, insane DRUGS, etc. Why not try a baseball bat or I know run them over with a car…..Trace it back psychiatry comes from the snake oil sales men from way back they are just carring on their proud heritage…Lies and deceit for $$$$$$ Cash. Watch them run when the law suites start.
Rosie
Biglizard,
Most people are speechless, as you just said, when they see this list. There are over 1,700 tragedies with full media article availabile besides the 11 Journal Articles.
——————————————————
“If you are interested in scientific studies which show the harm that can be caused by raising serotonin levels in the brains, then go to
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php
and scroll down to the two plus signs [++] under “Additional”. Here you wil find 11 research articles, some of which have appeared in Journals, others in newspapers, that show for example: 1. Serotonin levels are already 9 times higher in unmedicated anxious people than they are in unmedicated normal people. 2. An excess of serotonin in the brain can cause mayhem 3. SSRIs & LSD share same mechanisms in one important respect 4. SSRIs increase the serotonin receptor linked to suicide and 5. Over 200,000 people a year are hospitalized with antidepressant induced mania & psychosis.
Biglizard
Rosie,
You would think there would be reputable psychiatrits and Physicians with enough ethical fortitude to attack these drugs. Do you happen to know of any? and what can we do to get the few (its always just a few) who are pushing these deadly drugs thrown in prison where they belong.
(Sorry if my writting seems a bit confused but I am still STUNNED!)
Rosie
Biglizard,
There are a few doctors with “the ethical fortitude” to attack these antidepressants but they have done so at great personal risk to their own careers. I will not name them in this public forum.
It is sad that Jason & Tom have no inkling of what is happening. They are like the rest of the citizens of America - completely in the dark.
Yes, this Website does stun people when they first view it.
______________________________________________
“If you are interested in scientific studies which show the harm that can be caused by raising serotonin levels in the brains, then go to
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php
and scroll down to the two plus signs [++] under “Additional”. Here you wil find 11 research articles, some of which have appeared in Journals, others in newspapers, that show for example: 1. Serotonin levels are already 9 times higher in unmedicated anxious people than they are in unmedicated normal people. 2. An excess of serotonin in the brain can cause mayhem 3. SSRIs & LSD share same mechanisms in one important respect 4. SSRIs increase the serotonin receptor linked to suicide and 5. Over 200,000 people a year are hospitalized with antidepressant induced mania & psychosis.”
Biglizard
Dear Tom,
In going back through the thread I found a spot where you ask for an answer, if anyone has it. Well heres one to try, a guy beats his wife, has three kids and looses his job…he gets “depressed”. ( HE SHOULD BE DEPRESSED its the bodys natural response to danger!) Try getting him to stop beating his wife and training him to get a job, which will pay for his kids….poof just like magic he’s not depressed! psychiatry doesnt take anything into account except the physical body. We are dealing with people, humans, not RATS!
Biglizard
Thank you Rosie,
I am sure I will be able to find more on this on my own. (And I will!)
Dr. Baby
Steve,
Quick point - sorry from someone who is in medicine. If someone is on hydroxyzine, they are either in trouble and the doc has no idea what to do with them or they have had an allergic reaction. I don’t know any of my colleagues that really use it for that indication anymore. With the advent of the SSRI’s, antipsych’s and BZD’s there is no reason to use an antihistamine for GAD. Outside of pruritis, I really can’t say I have seen many Atarax Rx’s at all anymore.
Anecdotal reports is a stat term for something that is uncommon and not listed in the package insert (
Dr. Baby
Not sure why the whole post didn’t come across, sorry. Too much effort to retype as it wouldn’t change any minds on this board. Just good luck and please get some medical advice from someone who knows - haven’t we learned that wikipedia is not always right? Especially in the medical portion if what you report is correct.
Biglizard
Doug,
Thank you! In reading over you comments about “masking the real problem” it just hit me…of course all these murders, suicides, mass murders, etc. occur while someone is on psychiatric drugs…the drug stops depression! Get it? Why is it people dont go around killing each other all the time? They would feel pretty bad.. mabey depressed with the psyciatric drugs NOBODY FEELS BAD no matter what they do! Jesus this is what psychiatric drugs have unleashed on society, humans with no remorse,feelings of guilt or who even care what they do!
THIS HAS TO BE STOPPED!
Tom
Big Lizard,
If a guy beats his wife, I don’t care what the reason is - he has severe issues and should be incarcerated. Can’t follow your logic as criminals should be punished, not let off the hook because they are depressed. Jail not meds are the answer for that bloke.
If I every see a rat beat his mate, I will try to study him and see what we can do about this condition.
Biglizard
Tom,
That makes sense.
Ill go ya one better mate, I say we through the rat in jail! (That would be the one who try’s to put my kids on drugs.)
Tom
Big Lizzie,
So you are telling me that there were no murders before antidepressants? And society certainly hasn’t changed in the last 30 years………… And guns aren’t more prevelant….. Violence everywhere you look…….. Drug abuse…… Poverty…..Entitlement society……..
And now EVERYONE who commits a criminal act must be on antidepressants. That is an interesting theory. I tend to believe that those who would do things such as that are mentally challenged and should be medicated. But admittedly the meds don’t help everyone. So is the answer to lock people up until we see if they respond to the meds and become productive pieces of society?
Sorry the world is a big place with mentally unstable people all over the place. I don’t remember reading, were the 9/11 terrorists on AD’s? The VT shooter? The list could go on and on, the point is that the two don’t necessarily go hand in hand. People who are crazy commit crimes and some also go on meds. They don’t go on meds and then automatically go to a life of crime.
Tom
If someone tried to put your son on an AD, are you telling me there was no reason for that?!?! He just went to the doc for his well check and the doc thought - Hey, I just got a $5 sandwich from the Paxil rep, I should put this kids life in jeopardy.
I recommend a 2nd opinion if you are uncomfortable with the idea, but if it came up there was likely a reason for it. It could have been something he told the doc but was afraid to tell you. Who knows, but I am guessing something was amiss.
Steve Helgeson
Tom,
Oh, and regarding your earlier comment of “I guess this was a debate about the safety of SSRI’s, and many of those were not SSRI’s”, I forgot that I had included a page at another’s request on all of the adverse reactions reported for Seroquel, one of the atypical antipsychotics (SSRI’s).
It’s at http://www.psychdrugdangers.com/reactions.html if you don’t want to go through the psychdrugdangers home page text to find the link.
Because of the sheer volume of adverse reactions reported to the FDA on psychiatric drugs over the three year period (many of them esoteric medical terms), I selectively picked out certain reactions to show, ones that I thought narrowed in on the TeenScreen controversy which was my original reason for searching out adverse drug reactions.
Including all of the reactions in the general tables would, I think, result in an information overload, not to mention a web page table that would take minutes to load.
While developing the site, I had a request for the adverse reactions reported on Seroquel. I supplied a table for that request and made the list of unique adverse reactions available on the above linked webpage with these statistics: of the 18,799 separate adverse reaction reports submitted on Seroquel for patients from newborn through 49 years old, there were 1,113 distinct reactions where Seroquel was named as the Primary Suspect Drug for the reaction and 917 distinct reactions where Seroquel was named as Secondary Suspect Drug or Concomitant (sharing responsibility for effect) or Interacting.
See the full list at the above link.
Were you saying that you think SSRI’s are safe?
I didn’t know about the SSRI studies that Rosie mentions. They certainly add fuel to the fire and I will incorporate a link to that site on my website. Thanks Rosie.
Biglizard
Tom,
I can say for ceartain that NOBODY came into a school and shot everyone in site until psyciatric drugs were introduced!
(By the way my gun has never gotten up and shot anyone)
And just as a reminder psyciatry has not necessarily been on the cutting edge of healing. With the ice picks in the brain lobotomies, electric shock what a bunch of “caring ” people. All I am concerned with is keeping psyciatrys MADE UP diseases and DEADLY “curse” to them away from MY kids. Peddle the psychiatric snake oil show elsewhere!
(By the way these are the same justifications you find for ALL psychiatrys past, failed, “cures”)
Tom
Again, you are right. I don’t think global warming started until SSRI’s were introduced either, are you saying that SSRI’s are killing penguins too?
I am with you, but I hate to muddy the waters on gun control. Guns don’t kill people, but people with guns kill people. So I am pro-drug, pro-gun control. You haven’t seen one of these school massacres in England have you? They have SSRI’s, but much better gun control.
I am not saying SSRI’s are the answer for “all of life’s problems” - can anyone tell me what is? But for some, the literature backs it up, these meds help people. If this were the only side of the story as you guys think, there is no way anyone would prescribe these meds (AD are the #1 prescribed class of drugs by the way), and the FDA would have to yank them off the shelves. I know, the FDA is in the pocket of the drug companies, and have never pulled a drug off the market. Didn’t happen to Vioxx, Bextra, Ketek, Permax. This is fun.
Also ECT is very effective, equal to drugs. And this is likely without the risk of suicides. But a couple of movies ruined this therapy for all but the worst cases. With the stigma now attached to ECT, no one wants it. They would rather take a pill and take their chances. So again, people like you ruined an effective therapy.
Biglizard
Tom,
Wow. Shocking.
I just went to the MERK website, since it states “where patients come first” and under EVERY psychiatric disorder in the section Etiology it states “Exact cause unknown.” Yes as I said earlier someone might seem to be helped by being plugged into the wall sockett and being doped to the gills but how many people have done just fine without being shocked and druged?
Since the begining of man there has been the search for a magic solution, they all back fire. It takes hard work and someone to care about the person. I would like to see the studies on how many people have recovered with just a little care. It does seem to me that you want to help people but, and its just my personal opinion, TLC and someone to listen to ya every now and then goes a lot further than drugs or elecrticity.
Biglizard
Tom,
oh ya,
as far as guns, Ted Kennedys car has killed more people than my gun. (Besides there’s that messy little thing called the Constitution of the United States getting in the way.)
Tom
Lizzie, I actually think we are kind of close with that comment. I agree that many of the problems with these kids is lack of attention, poor upbringing, no education. What is your answer for these kids - force their parents to care? I would say there are more bad parents than good ones out there. And since we can’t mandate parenting, we have to do the best with what we have.
No, again, we DO NOT know what causes psych issues in people! I am actually tired of stating that. We just see through observation that some meds actually help people. These are placebo controlled trials, and more people got better on meds than on placebo. So we have theories and some medications that work - TCA’s, SSRI’s, MAOI’s, atypicals.
The answer is not always drugs, but then again, sometimes there is not a better answer. And your statement about care is taken well by me. That is actually why I believe that repeat suicide attempts are more rare than a single attempt and recovery. It is not b/c they were taken off of their meds, but b/c their parent finally took notice of them.
Did you go to the Merck Manual site? I guess that is a step up over Wikipedia, but any book that is sold at Wal-Mart is of little value in a medical practice - but thanks for actually going to a medical reference, that is a change for this site. Most people rely on sensationalistic website for information.
Laurie
“But for some, the literature backs it up, these meds help people.” And most here have never advocated for removal of these drugs from the market. We just want people to know that the “literature” that praises the effectiveness of these category of drug has been disputed by many other sources. There are other treatments for depression. Therapy is a word that Tom hasn’t even mentioned. If it’s not a drug or an electrical current through the brain psychiatry doesn’t want to hear about it. You can’t run 4-5 people an hour through your practice if you actually have to talk to them.
I’m assuming this comment was addressed to me,”I recommend a 2nd opinion if you are uncomfortable with the idea, but if it came up there was likely a reason for it. It could have been something he told the doc but was afraid to tell you. Who knows, but I am guessing something was amiss”
My son had a second opinion with a child psychiatrist, who agreed with the Paxil use for his “anxiety”. Both decided it was hormonal in nature and would go away in a year, with Paxil use. A year later he was standing in the living room with a knife in his hand slashing himself. Today, 3 years off Paxil he will tell you “Anxiety is nothing compared to what Paxil did to my brain”. Having witnessed this firsthand I choose to lay the blame where it belongs…on the drug. Never suicidal prior to Paxil(documented by his psychiatrist in his medical record), suicidal on Paxil(documented in his medical record) and not suicidal after Paxil…not documented since his psychiatrist decided to drop him as a patient after the suppressed clinical trials came out. Coincidence….I think not.
Biglizard
Tom,
It does sound like we’re close to something.
Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you would not recommend drugs or electricity as the first course of action?
And I do think you a right, when it comes to the drug issue, that drugs can seem to have a benifit with some people. I have friends who seem to do great after a couple of drinks at night. How would you feel about stating with a lessor drug like alcohol first, since we know we dont know what causes it or what it’s curse is, and work our way up to the psychiatric drugs and electricity.
Lauri, I have also not heard ANY mention of alternative therapy BEFORE the extreme measure of drugging.
Tom
Lizard,
That is correct. I say use drugs when you don’t have a better alternative. Actually I did mention psych therapy much earlier in the discussion - there are equivalent results with psychotherapy and drug therapy. No better, no worse. Maybe some additional benefit from getting both. This is an very anti-med environment and most of the people here want the drugs removed entirely.
Did you really recommend alcohol before medications? For real or just a joke to see how far I would take it? Come on, let me know!
Also Laurie, sorry that happened to your son. As you stated there was something amiss and the 2nd opinion confirmed it. I have noticed that when something extreme like that happens we all need something to blame. And it is much easier and looks much better to say “the drug changed me”, than, “I was in a bad place and tried to hurt myself”. Certainly not saying it is possible that it wasn’t the meds, but just something to consider. Having something take the blame, get over it, and move on. If he is doing well, I say great, don’t use meds ever again (probably).
Good luck and hope things work out!
Biglizard
Tom,
I think were moving backwards. you state: “when you don’t have a better alternative.”?! Drugs a federally funded other types aren’t? Honestly, I do not know. I am not in the medical field and have only taken the mandatory psyc classes in collage.
Before I continue I would like to make a point of clarification.
The definition of medication I am about to use is: any drug taken to cure or reduce the symptoms of an illness or ongoing medical condition.
So psychiatric “meds”, we agree, do not cure anything. They can’t, we know that, correct.
With that said, YES why not alcohol, if as you say, you say “meds help people” then to reduce the symtoms try EVERY lessor drug until you reach the point of drugs with possible suicidal and homicidal side effects.
I did not quite get whether or not you felt it resonable and even mandatory to try everything possible pefore using ANY drug in “helping” a patient?
Biglizard
Tom,
Sorry about that last post I was a bit rushed.
The point I was asking about at the begining was, drugs are federally funded aren’t other forms of therapy? And if is it mandated that they be used first?
Anthor question just came to me, do you happen to know how many psychiatrists are on these drugs or give themselves shock therapy, or their kids? Just wondering.
Also I am not someone who wants drugs eliminated or “anti-meds” I am however, someone who is highly concerned with reports on psychiatric drugs and there effects on CHILDREN.
tom
Drugs aren’t federally funded. Some might be discovered in an academic environment and sold to a manufacturer. Academic institutions are generally not equipped to produce and market drugs.
How do you figure alcohol is a lesser drug?!?! Don’t you know any alcoholics? Also your “anecdotal” report as alcohol helping your friend doesn’t quite qualify as medical literature. I support doing things that are backed up by research, the literature guides treatment. You can certainly try other things, but outside of psychotherapy and antidepressants there aren’t a lot of other alternatives. Now doing things like exercise, improving diet, activities that raise self esteem seem to have some effect. But how would you feel if you were depressed, troubled and finally reaching out and your doc told you “start eating better and exercising and you can shake this off”? Or better yet, I want to be there when the doc recommends to a depressed person a “depressant”. I know you are totally illiterate with the medical treatments when you don’t know that alcohol is considered a “depressant”. I am not sure what role an addictive and depressing substance is advocated for treating a depressed person. So you can use “ANY” drug to help someone, but why not try to stick to those that actually have shown to have a benefit. Remember EVERY drug has a risk to taking it - so why take the risk with no real benefit to be gained.
tom
so were you advocating alcohol use for kids? I know a lot of psych who have family members on meds. You can mandate that people do lots of things, but that doesn’t happen in the real world. Otherwise health food stores would be packed and McD empty.
Again, drugs aren’t federally mandated. They are federally regulated. These meds are the only ones proven to be effective in treating depression. If you can find another option please let me know. that is the problem, these meds aren’t the best sol’n, but right now they are our only solution.
Biglizard
Tom,
I can see how someone becomes anti-meds and wants to remove them all together. I just have. Your absolute brush off of VALID alternatives show me exactly where your “profession” stands on the issue of CAREING about someone. I can tell be your utter refusal to even acknowledge the fact that federal dollars DO pay for psychiatric testing and drugs in schools, such as “teen screen” shows me just how bought and paid for by the drug companies you are.
As far as alcohol etc. Ya just dont get it. I wouldn’t want any kid on any drug, however psychiatry has espoused cocaine, herion and LSD as the “new wonder drugs” in the past, you have been wrong on each count! Now this, the “new wonder drug” Oh goody goody. Snake oil… SNAKE OIL. I’ll stick to law thank you, and thank christ I didn’t get suckered into a field of endevore which has no idea what it is talking about and outright admits it doesnt know. However you do get to use a lot of big, 50 cent, words.
Good luck with your life and I just hope you dont end up at the wrong end of an electrical socket.
Ernest
An interesting point on psychiatric drugs versus other forms of treatment or therapy: On 28 Sept. 2005 the Guardian in the United Kingdom ran this story: “GPs to stop prescribing antidepressants blamed for suicidal feelings in under-18s.” The first paragraph says, “Doctors were told to stop giving antidepressants to children and people under 18, because of the risks that the pills will make them feel suicidal.” Elsewhere it states, “New treatments to include exercise and couselling.” The full story is at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5295963-103690,00.html
That is one whole country that has now ceased prescribing antidepressants to kids and teens. If you wonder why you never heard about this just look at who sponsors the news in America–drug companies. I am told France is following Britain’s lead in this as well.
The seminal and very widely respected study establishing the link between antidepressants and suicide was done by Harvard’s Dr. Martin H. Teicher and published in the American Journal of Psychiatry in February 1990. The first paragraph of that study states, “Six depressed patients free of recent serious suicidal ideation developed intense, violent suicidal preoccupation after 2-7 weeks of fluoxetine {chemical name for Prozac} treatment. This state persisted for as little as 3 days to as long as 3 months after discontinuation of fluoxetine. None of these patients had ever experienced a similar state during treatment with any other psychotropic drug.” This study was not paid for by any drug company as far as I know and has been a thorn in Eli Lilly’s side to this day.
One final note regarding Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho. An earlier poster claimed Cho was not on antidepressants and I hope he can back that statement up with the toxicology results. The truth is, Cho was widely reported in the media to have been on medication for depression (would that be an antidepressant?) and he had been committed for psychiatric treatment shortly before going on his killing spree. According to Dr. Teicher’s study quoted above a person could experience ntense, violent suicidal reactions up to 3 months after discontinuing taking antidepressants. Based on media reports and interviews with people who knew Cho, he very likely was on or had recently been on an antidepressant. And even if he wasn’t the number of school and workplace killings committed by people firmly established as taking antidepressants is reason enough to keep the Black Box labels on these drugs.
There are safer ways to treat depression than antidepressants and whole countries are now doing that. If because the drug lobby is so powerful in America that we have to use these dangerous antidepressants as a first-line treatment, then the very least the public is entitled to is a Black Box label.
Curtis
Wow, take the Black Box warnings off of Psychotropic Mind Altering Drugs - That’s the ticket. NOT I am a parent who was strong armed into my daughter being on Psyche Meds now for over 11 years. She is not who she was at 7 years of age as she is now at almost 18. My daughter’s Psychiatrist stated that he had to consult his lawyer regarding the parent of a Joint Custody situation not being consulted in the matter needless to say the Drugs have already wreaked their damage. It is a grass roots efforts of this nature that let’s Big Pharma and the APA know that they are being watched and we won’t stand for it. Keep pouring on the coals of truth.
tom
Again, alcohol for kids as a valid alternative to meds? Ya just don’t get it. The drugs that you mentioned are kind of like saying - You know the auto industry built the Edsel - I am going to stick to walking. They are selling me snake oil.
Hey there have been mistakes in the past and there will be in the future. And if you are going to “stick to law” does that mean you are in jail or the receptionist for a lawyer. Too many misspellings for me to believe you are a lawyer, sorry. Keep drinking though. I know the more I drink the more I know and the more right I always am.
If federal dollars pays for the things that you say - take it up with your senator. If they are federal dollars they don’t come from the drug companies right? So do you guys want drug companies or the gov’t to pay for all of this? I thought if it was federal that meant that the drug companies weren’t involved, but our elected officials. You are the law guy, tell me how it works.
As soon as alcohol for depressed kids becomes the drug of choice, I hope it is posted here and you can let me have it. Until then……………………
tom
Ernest, did you just reference a study with an N=6???!?!?!
Actually if you can find the hard data on the results of the England trial that would be very interesting to see. I would accept the results sight unseen at face value, would you?
If England cuts it’s suicide risk by eliminating drugs I would say you guys are right. Until then, the data suggests otherwise.
BTW, how are drug companies paying for the news? I haven’t heard anything about the newest study Ed has referenced saying that suicides go down with meds on the news. If they ran the news I would think they would want that to be known.
And the toxicology reports at VT came back negative for any legal or illegal drug. I don’t have a link, just a memory. Maybe if he was medicated he wouldn’t of caused that destruction, we will never know. He was crazy I will give you that, and appearantly not medicating wasn’t ideal.
Biglizard
Tom,
Well by your little outburst I would recommend you prescribe yourself some of these new drugs. It would seem you have a case of hypocriticalness, one of your 50 cent words. Try a handful of Prozac and work your way up to death. At that point we will know it was just a mistake of the past.
SNAKE OIL.
tom
I was trying to be nice and we even agreed on some basic things. But come on, alcohol for depressed kids?!? I do feel kind of bad for that last one, but come on my friend. You will wake up tomorrow and say “what was I thinking?!?”
Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I try to keep mine grounded in the evidence, not the hype. I actually don’t need meds right now, but if I do, I won’t be afraid to take them. And if my son needs them, I will feel awful and question the way I raised him, but I will get him the help he needs.
And please take this up with the elected officials, I actually am not involved in psych so I honestly have no idea about the programs you mentioned. But if they are federally funded, that is a question for your government, not your drug company.
tom
OK, I apogize for this in advance….
Curt - Did you just use a 20 year old SNL reference? ya ya that’s the ticket and then a Wayne’s world reference - NOT.
I have no idea of the family situation you described - but it sounds like divorce? I hate to say that the data backs up divorced kids having more social problems than those raised in a traditional family. So you are sure that the drugs messed her up more than a bad family life? She needed the meds for a reason, people who are happy and well adjusted don’t get prescribed Prozac. If you never even knew, what good would a warning have done? She still needed something and would have been prescribed something. And she still had a broken family.
And the “damage was already done”. What does that even mean - like many children in divorces she likely holed up, became withdrawn and quiet. She maybe even thought she was the reason this happened and was always guilt ridden. I have no idea, but I have heard those stories before. These kids never got help and never really adjusted. So maybe in the end the results are the same, but without evidence we don’t know.
Ernest
Tom,
Must be a slow day at the office huh? I would think anyone with a successful practice (even psychiatry) would be too busy to post on this site all day long. Did you say you had some medical credentials in an earlier post? What are they? You sure don’t talk like anyone who practices medicine.
You show up among a bunch of concerned citizens, claim you are some sort of medical professional and proceed to crap on anyone who doesn’t agree with you or who provides hard facts that disprove the sheer opinion and false information you have spend your day posting here.
Maybe you are getting paid to be here. Its the only explanation I can think of off-hand for why you aren’t busy helping people at your implied medical practice. Oh, except for the fact that you really don’t seem to be a people person which is the first requisite for being able to help anyone.
I guess a drug company might be willing to pay someone to spend their day trying to convince people that removing the Black Box label on antidepressants is a good idea. A drug sales rep or some such creature could spout a bit of medical terminology to dazzle us common folk. Quit wasting the time of the concerned people on this site. Plainly you have no compassion for anyone who has experienced bad results and disastrous side-effects from antidepressants. Any real doctor would. Nobody sees you as a medical professional with any concern for helping people, any experience at it or any skills at it. You are a hatchetman with words and a drug company agenda, good at being a bully and putting people down. Move on guy, your work here is done and we see you for who and what you are.
Biglizard
Dear Tom,
As far as alcohol for kids it was not a serious analogy. (Lighten up, laugh a little.) It was simply to point out that psychiatrists are simply trying any drug and using the public as Guiney pigs. (A point you bolster by admitting heroin, cocaine and LSD are just past failures that were sold to the public and now are a scourge on society.)
I would like to get back to the type of discussion we were having at an earlier point.
It is refreshing to hear you would put yourself or you children on drugs if you felt it necessary. However I would reserve judgment until I saw it happen. (Easier to say than do.) I was under the impression you are a psychiatrist. You state “I am not actually involved in psych.†So what do you have to do with this?
The past failures are like Edsels? Edsels are, did, not potentially cause our children to commit suicide or mass homicide. I would also like to ask if you happen to know of any successes psychiatry has had. LONG term successes. Drugs, therapy or anything.
Biglizard
Dear Tom,
On a side note, attorneys are notoriously bad spellers it’s the reason for all the damn clerks! Ha,ha.
tom
Ok, Ok, I give. I have to admit I might need some pills, I was somewhat addicted to this site today. But I am going to go cold turkey, so you guys can have your anitmedicine, antipharma rants back without me there to rain on your parade. But I bet it isn’t as fun and the posts dry up - besides the “You are right, they are bad” posts. I had a good time and hope I didn’t hurt anyone too bad, just trying to point out that this isn’t as black and white as you believe. These kids are ill and we don’t have the perfect answer yet, but not treating doesn’t seem right either. And I even got some work done today between posts, so it wasn’t a total loss.
I am not a psych, but I do have a practice. I am actually a pharmacology consultant, I work for nursing homes and hospitals. I have seen the “magic” of psychiatry up close and personal and have seen many success stories - long and short term. I am trained in biostats and pharmacy. So I can dissect a study with the best of them. I help hospitals put guidelines in place so that patients will get well quicker and get back to their lives faster. I live for evidence based medicine. That is medicine that is proven by the facts. Not innuedo, not rumor, not my neighbor saw this on Oprah, but published data in journals. My job is to make hospitals run more efficiently and get better results - I don’t get paid for using meds, I get paid for getting people well. I don’t get funding from drug companies. I actually won’t accept anything from them or even talk to reps to be honest. But I might start talking to them just for the debate as I do seem to enjoy it. But who would want to talk to me - not really a people person.
I guess I am fed up with people who are ruining medicine for those of us practicing. Believe me, psychs deal with people like you all day - they would not come to a site to hear more of this kind of rant. The most recent data suggests that not using these meds in pts that need them might do more harm than you guys think. Look at Ed’s latest post up there - again, evidence based medicine is the key.
So this is my fond farewell. I will start checking other sites for more objective - less antipharma/medicine sites.
Good luck again everyone, I really am doing this to stop the damage this kind of nonsense is doing to our society. I know everyone thinks they are right and I am crazy, but I have easy access to meds, so I will be fine.
Biglizard
Dear Tom,
Ernest isn’t right is he?
It never even crossed my mind that you are a drug company rep, however looking back at your last post to me you do state, “that is a question for your government, not your drug company.†Is that who you are, my drug company?
Biglizard
Dear Tom,
Glad to hear Ernest isn’t right. Kind of close, but not what I started thinking. For the record I never called you crazy and like you I am about FACTS. I just do not see how you can back up drugs that are not based on facts. When a “science†has no idea what causes it or curse it, how can anything it does be based in fact? So “some people do better…†that again is not a fact. I would require more research until some facts are found. Until that point the black box IS based on fact and should stay. Please correct me where I have gone wrong.
tom
Ok Ok, this really is my last post, I am signing off and turning the computer off. One step at a time right, I already admitted I had a problem, anyone know step 2?
No, Lizzie, see post above. Don’t work for a drug company, but glad they have helped our health improve over the years. Without drug companies we wouldn’t even have aspirin, we would be chewing on bark and looking to China for hollistic cures. I am not pro or anti pharma, but pro studies and evidence.
Sorry to disappoint you guys, not a drug co shill, just a guy hired by hospitals to get people better, faster. I use data and evidence all day long, which is why I have posted on a number of topics, because I have access to all the studies and actually spend my day figuring out how to help people with the current state of medicine and available medications.
But if you guys know anyone at a drug company that would pay me to do this, I would honestly consider it - this was fun! Thanks again, and really this time I am hanging up, no you first, Ok I’ll hang up……….. are you still there? You hang up first, Ok………
tom
Ok, Lizard your post showed up before I could sign off. This really is the last one, really. I would have to say psych is more of an art than a science. We want it to be cold hard facts with a disease model and a sure path to treating it, but it is hard to study the brain in living people. And since when you are dead, you aren’t really thinking anymore, that makes it hard to study people in that state as well. So as the rest of medicine is more of a hard science, psych is stuck with observation, trying new things, and hoping.
People should be informed and know that their little one should be watched closely. I would hope that common sense would show that versus a warning. But then again, when you put your faith on people, they usually let you down. So I am not opposed to a warning unless it hurts people, like some of the new studies might suggest - not definitively prove, but suggest.
Your a good guy, thanks for playing with me today. You made me think and I laughed. As Jimmy Valvano said people should : laugh, love and cry everyday. You got me through at least 2 of those today - you pick ‘em.
Again, honestly, live well everyone and take care of those kids. I know that is where I am headed right now, I did too much ignoring today while Daddy had fun. So really this time I am done, the computer is being turned o
Steve Helgeson
Dr Baby,
Thanks for the “anecdotal” definition. I didn’t know that use of the term.
As for Atarax, there are a number of other references to it being used for anxiety (e.g., “Hydroxyzine’s main use is to help in the treatment of anxiety” http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000192.html), but I am going to pull it from my website’s line-up as you say it’s not in vogue for this mental treatment use.
The purpose of my website is to present the reported adverse reactions that patients have experienced taking current psychiatric drugs, to inform them of the potential dangers they or their family members face if they are prescribed one (or more). There’s (unfortunately) plenty of those reports available in the FDA database without including nitpicky drugs that are no longer used for psychiatric purposes. If they still want to take the psych drug or put their kid on a psych drug after viewing the FDA reports, that’s up to them. But at least I feel I’ve done my moral duty in making the FDA reports available to the general public so they can make an informed decision.
I am not in the medical field. I’m a database programmer, and a concerned parent. I ran across this wealth of information - from the FDA no less - while researching TeenScreen. I was pretty sure that it had been made available to the public at large in a useful format (heck, I’d be surprised to learn it’s been made available to the FDA at large in a useful format), and I knew it would take a database programmer to make sense out of the FDA site’s unjoined tables.
More specifically, they give you a demographics table that contains ages and whatnot, and a drugs table listing the drug(s) involved, and a reactions table listing the reactions - all “joinable”, not joined, by a common ISR (Individual Safety Report) number in each table’s record.
But they’re separate tables on the FDA website, so just looking at the raw data is not enlightening. You look in the demographics table and see “12345 12 YR”, then look in the drugs table and see “12345 Paxil”, then look in the reactions table and see “12345 Suicidal Ideation”. All you can discern from the raw data (as the 12345 ISR doesn’t easily link up the separate records in your mind) is that there was a patient 12 years old, Paxil was a reported drug (not linkable to the 12 year old by just looking at the drugs table), and someone of some age thought about committing suicide while using some drug.
So I set up a Microsoft Access relational database that contained all of the tables and linked the records together by the linking ISRs. Then I was able to see “a 12 year old had Suicidal Ideation while taking Paxil”, and another, and another - there’s 7 such Cases of 12 year olds contemplating suicide while taking Paxil. There are 6 that completed suicide with Paxil reported as the Primary Suspect Drug - 6 12 year olds! And Paxil is a drug that is not approved for pediatric use! (Although, to be fair, the reported events all occurred before 2004 when the Black Box Warning was issued; they were not reported to the FDA until the 2004-2006 period.)
Another shortcoming, for my purposes, is that the FDA database doesn’t identify any categories for the reported drugs. A drug is a drug is a drug. There is an Indications table that they say reports what condition was being treated, but that’s mostly esoteric medical jargon to me and I’m doing this on my spare time with a sense of urgency that this data needs to be made available as soon as possible. So I just wanted to know “which of these are psychiatric drugs?”
I then spent a lot of time looking up the drugs that had been reported as the Primary Suspect Drug for suicide attempts, completed suicides, depression, etc. (you know, TeenScreen’s “anti-suicide” mantra) and included in my tables any that had such reactions and were listed somewhere (that looked reputable or had multiple sources) as a treatment for some sort of mental problem (such as anxiety). Many were specifically stated to be “antipsychotics”, “antidepressants”, etc. Others, like Atarax, were vague, but they had the “mental treatment’ ingredient and (as with Atarax) had the damning “Suicide Attempt” reactions.
I don’t want to “muddy the issue”, as Tom complains, by including drugs that don’t fit the “Adverse Psychiatric Drug Reactions” mold. I’m positive that there are more than enough true psychiatric drugs to list.
I would appreciate your looking over the drugs listed on the site and let me know any others that really shouldn’t be included in the lists. If it would be easier, I can send you (or anyone else from the medical field reading this blog) a list of the drugs that appear in all of the tables and I can weed out the ones that shouldn’t be presented. Send me your e-mail address to research@psychdrugdangers.com and I’ll send you the list.
Laurie
“I have seen the “magic†of psychiatry ”
That’s pretty much sums it all up. Interesting term used….magic.
Tom, you are obviously stuck on the “blame the child” mentality, as is most of psychiatry. I’ll reiterate what I said earlier. Unless you have watched your own child descend into the psychosis that Paxil can cause, in some children, you cannot even begin to imagine what they go through. No, my son is not mentally ill, and today is a normal young man. The only time that he would have fallen into the category of mentally ill was during his Paxil use. A mildly anxious child does not turn psychotic due to his mild anxiety and have that psychosis magically disappear when the Paxil is stopped.
It’s not the children…it’s the drug. But, as evidenced by your responses, it’s going to take alot to change the perceptions. But I’ll keep talking, writing and fighting for the awareness that needs to happen. We owe that to our children who are victims in this fight.
Doug
Dearest Tommie,
Just a few of your points I thought I would reiterate.
“Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I try to keep mine grounded in the evidence, not the hype.”
“I live for evidence based medicine. That is medicine that is proven by the facts. Not innuedo, not rumor, not my neighbor saw this on Oprah, but published data in journals.”
“Look at Ed’s latest post up there - again, evidence based medicine is the key.”
“I am not pro or anti pharma, but pro studies and evidence.”
“I would have to say psych is more of an art than a science. We want it to be cold hard facts with a disease model and a sure path to treating it, but it is hard to study the brain in living people. And since when you are dead, you aren’t really thinking anymore, that makes it hard to study people in that state as well. So as the rest of medicine is more of a hard science, psych is stuck with observation, trying new things, and hoping.”
All of the these from your own words.
Do you base your opinion on good hard evidence as you said in several of the post that I’ve listed above or do you base your opinion on the “Art” of Psychiatry and “Hope” your right as you said above as well.
Since I left this thread earlier today you still haven’t given any hard data “grounded in evidence” that proves that a “chemical imbalance” is what is going on with people with mental problems. I know you said that you were tired of answering that question but the problem is that there isn’t an answer and your basing the “success stories” that you’ve seen on people dumbed down from life that can’t “feel” the same way they did when they weren’t on that mind altering garbage that you would call medication.
If Psychiatry is going to treat people as they have something physically wrong with them, such as a “chemical imbalance” then they need to prove it as the rest of health care has had to do. These drugs are a masking of the problem, not a handling that leads to a cure.
I thought your suggestion about the guns being the problem in the killings was a hoot. You are a funny dude. So you can’t figure out how to cure the crazy people so of course you would wrong target the guns because we all know how deadly they are all by themselves. Just as Biglizard said mine hasn’t killed anyone sitting on my shelf!!!!! Do you own a gun?
The 80% of us that are just trying to get along should give up somemore of our rights to handle the 20% that are causing all the trouble. Nice. Maybe you should start taking some of the drugs you have easy access to because that’s not sane thinking.
If your so sure that your correct please take some of your free time and dig for the cure yourself. See how fare you can get with a theory that can’t be proven.
I’m sure you’ll be back since you had so much fun today so please show me once again how dumb I am and how smart you are.
Love always
Dougie
Larry
The psychiatrists who are complaining about the black box warnings on SSRI’s are lucky they don’t live in China. Being irresponsible and not caring there could lead to being executed. Making the manufacture and distribution of SSRI’s a serious crime and banning them would prevent so many more future deaths and future mental and physical incapacity in so many people. And the people harmed by these harmful drugs will have to be helped. To bad that the “experts” responsible couldn’t care less!
Laurie
Dougie..you hit it on the head. And that inconsistency is what those who suffer from an adverse reaction to an ssri deal with everyday. They are not believed, they are labeled with secondary diagnosis’ and many are given additional drugs to deal with what was a drug reaction in the first place. The “Oh, It can’t be the drug” is standard response to a bad reaction.
Tom’s response of “And it is much easier and looks much better to say “the drug changed meâ€, than, “I was in a bad place and tried to hurt myselfâ€. Certainly not saying it is possible that it wasn’t the meds, but just something to consider. “. He chooses not to hear the whole story, as is the case of most in the profession. No doctor wants to admit that a drug that he prescribed may have caused a childs suicide. So denying the problem is easier.
Larry
When FDA Officials start talking about repealing SSRI black box warnings I think that is that is the time for Congress to convene an investigation into graft and curruption in the FDA. It could only be graft or insanity or a little of both that could cause FDA officials to consider further endangering the public safety through withdrawing these warnings. The public has a right to know if valid research indicates there is a serious public health safety issue with these drugs. Or are we to believe that the only valid research is that funded by companies having an undisclosed conflict of interest in the outcome of the research? And are the lower suicide/homicide rates of teens and adults before the advent of SSRI’s to be totally disregarded? Is the safer experience of the past to be totally ignored? When common sense logic goes out the window a complete investigation is warranted and long overdue.
Biglizard
Dear Tom,
(If you happen to look back in) Thank You!
That completely answered EVERY question I had. I agree psychiatry is an “artâ€. Not a science. For better or for worse there are no facts to base their finding or conclusions on, other than a “feeling or some people seem to do better…†My ONLY problem with this art is that it doesn’t seem to me they look at or pursue vigorously enough other possible solutions. (Other than drugs that is.) Again this has been very enlightening for me too and thank you again.
tom
I told you that you would miss me!!!! Nothing more than:
Tommie I hate you, you are retarded posts, and
yea, yea, you are right, drug companies should all die posts…..
Not going to do it (SNL reference - take note curtis). Have at it on your own.
Big Lizard - I am only disappointed in you.
Good luck to everyone and I hope everyone ends up OK!
tom
Ernest,
Did you get the results of that England no SSRI policy? Not trying to start any conversation - I will not respond. Just trying to find out if it was published.
Doug
Tommie,
Kind of hard to debate with no ammo isn’t it.
Love always
Dougie
sil
Hey did you guys read the other post about antidepressants on here?
jason
You guys are dedicated, I will give you that! That is why I am asking everyone to do me a favor. I just lost a pt to an NSAID induced GI bleed. I know this post is pediatric, but elderly are a vulnerable population as well, aren’t they?
Every year NSAIDs (ibuprofen, Motrin, naproxen, Alleve, aspirin, Feldene - basically anything for pain outside of narcotics or Tylenol) kill 16,500 people and cause 100,000 hospitalizations. I am asking you to check on your parents, neighbor, grandparents and find out if they are taking any of these meds without their doctors knowledge - they are available OTC and by scrip. Have them discuss with their doc if they are using these meds without physician knowledge. The greatest risk comes in those over 70 years old, those on multiple NSAIDs - including an aspirin a day, and those on blood thinners.
Help save a life today, check on someone you care about.
Thanks
seroxat secrets… Black box or no black box…? «
[...] July 12th, 2007 — admin There’s a very interesting debate/poll going on at Pharmalot regarding the FDA proposal to consider repealing the black box warning on [...]
Biglizard
Tom,
What’s wrong buddy? I agreed with you. Psychiatry is an “artâ€. I would even go further and state that every other science is also an art. The only difference I see is other sciences are based on fact and then the profession, the application of the science, is an art. Psychiatry is not based on any facts and the profession just makes up things as they go along. (That’s pretty artful) When they can build a science correctly, facts first, then the “art†of application, they might get somewhere. Until then it’s SNAKE OIL!
Shawn May
I’m uncertain how Scientology came into this discussion or for that matter, other religions, but I will state I am a Scientologist (Big, Big, Big Time). Scientology saved my marriage, my career and many other facets of my life without the use of mind altering narcotics.
If you didn’t know, the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (a non-profit psychiatric watchdog – http://cchr.org) investigates and exposes psychiatric human rights and abuse. CCHR was established in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and the internationally acclaimed author, Dr. Thomas Szasz. CCHR is responsible for the bill which forces drug companies to disclose, through their marketing, the side and harmful effects of their medications that we all have become accustomed to seeing/hearing on TV, newspaper ads and the radio.
If you or someone you know has been abused by psychiatry, visit the CCHR website (http://cchr.org) to report the crime.
Not to take away from posts above where people have been affected by horrible psychiatric crimes but the best way to truly get the data on this subject is go directly to the source and not listen to conjecture or opinion. Look, Look, Look. Look at the facts and futures. Look at the statistics. Review the facts on Steve’s website (http://www.psychdrugdangers.com) where he has collected and tabulated several thousand adverse event reports on psychiatric drugs sent to FDA over the past three years. Go to http://cchr.org to get more data.
Do something. The worst thing to do is nothing.
sid
what page of Dianetics is that on?
Psychiatry Kills
So to put this in the proper perspective –
Take a scenario where we have a group of “certified†car mechanics with the supposed power and clout, “because who they areâ€, to diagnose, declare (label) and publish a book where therein, it declares over 40 million American Dodge vehicles are afflicted with several severe “invisible and complex defects” with resounding words like “Acute Dodge HyperExtended Defect†– ADHD
Acute Dodge HyperExtended Defect (ADHD):
Disorder 1322.12 Symptoms:
Does not drive straight on roads
Has a hard time starting in the morning
Wind Shield Wipers Dull after 3 months
Requires extra gas on hot days
Becomes abnormally hyper when on Premium gas
Because this ambiguous book (diagnosis) supposedly is so thoroughly “effective†in lining their pocketbooks and getting people to “believe†in their “defectsâ€, this group of “certified†car mechanics publishes a much thicker book wherein they include several other dozen voted on “invisible complex defectsâ€. The only difference in this new book is now they aren’t just diagnosing Dodge vehicles, but now they’re included Chevys, Toyotas and little Honda motor bikes meant for children.
Bear in mind, these “invisible†but certainly “complex” defects cannot be established, demonstrated, proven or substantiated with any proven documented forensic facts or diagnostic machine, and the supposed symptoms of these specific defects are common with other possible legitimate defects (e.g. faulty alternator, clogged water pump, drained battery, dirty gas, low tire pressure, etc.).
Now, this group of car mechanic begins to recommend treatment (e.g. sand) along with proper routine maintenance (e.g. ride on 5 tires versus 4) to “effectively cope” with the problem (not fix or solve). Unfortunately, there is no known cure for these mechanical defects as their recommended maintenance is declared an “art†and must be continued throughout the life of the car. We can call this approach “Managing your car’s chronic defects”
Make no mistake, with everyone believing something is wrong with their car, Pep-Boys would make a fortune selling prescription sand in place of oil, and mechanics would make an even larger fortune prescribing ether for fossil fuel engines.
The best part is the dissemination of these suppose “vehicle defects†where people, unwittingly, say your car has ADHD (see explanation above)
Psychiatry is fraud. Do not believe a word uttered by one of these charlatans or someone who uses their lingo.
senor lopez
Wow, what an analogy.
So if my car doesn’t start I need Adderall.
But if I am feeling a little crazy I need to go to Autozone?
Could you diagnose all of my problems, or do you just specialize in Dodge’s? My blood sugar is a little high and my doctor told me to get a new fuel pump, but I would like a second opinion.
If anyone got through that whole post you really hate doctors. That was one of the worst things I have read.
By the way, Micheal Vick could use an oil change. I thought I read in the manual if you torture animals you are well overdue on a tune-up as well.
Tim Casey
Here’s some interesting little FACTS….
The rate of suicide among people not taking “antidepressants’, including those who are depressed and not on a drug is …. 1 per 10,000 of the general population.
The rate of suicide among US soldiers in combat conditions is 2 per 10,000.
The rate of suicide among SSRI and SNRI “antidepressant users… NO MATTER WHAT THE “DIAGNOSIS” … is 1 per 700 of the general population
The suicide rate among clinical trial patients in the Cymbalta drug trials was 1 per 600…. including “non depressed, non suicidal” control patients.
The USA leads the world in the consumption of “antidepressants”. Utah leads the USA… Utah county, the heartland of the Mormons, leads Utah.
71% of “antidepressant” users are adult women…. Nearly 1/3 of adult Mormon women in Utah county are taking a daily “antidepressant”.
According to GSK’s spokesperson Dr. Alistair Benbow…” if you give PAXIL to 1,000 depressed students… PAXIL WILL ONLY KILL 30 OF THEM DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR.
Americans are 4% of the world’s population.
Americans consume 50% of the world’s prescription drugs.
EVERY 5 MINUTES AN AMERICAN IS KILLED BY AN FDA APPROVED PRESCRIPTION DRUG.
Tim Casey
Lehi, Utah
prozackills2002@yahoo.ca
Lisa Van Syckel
Tim.
Thank You, Well stated……..
Chris Diana
Psychiatry, the drug companies, and the FDA make interesting bed fellows. Obviously, they all have their own agendas about putting as many innocent adults and children on these dangerous drugs. The benefit for drug companies is obvious but not so with psychiatry. Could they be the real danger? The study sited was done in 2003-2004. Black box labeling wasn’t done until 2005. Trying to repeal the black box warning based on lies is criminal.
jason
Tim,
What is the suicide rate of depressed patients not on medication. That is really the only different number that matters. I am guessing, just as more depressed people on meds attempt suicide, the same can be said for depressed not being treated.
Lisa Van Syckel
Jason,
I have a proposal…
I would love to sponsor an open,public debate on this issue…With a moderator, of course
Advocates vs Pharma Marketing folks.
If you are interested,you can reply through this blog,or you may contact me directly at lvansyckel61@yahoo.com
jason
Sounds great Lisa, who are we going to get for Pharma Marketing folks?
Lisa Van Syckel
Jason,
It can be yourself..and you can e-mail some collegues,and maybe Tom who posts often on this Blog would be interested.
We can ask Ed and John Mack if they would be interested in being Moderators,and we can hold the debate in Washington,DC.
I have a hard time believing that you are a Country Doc. Your views and words lead me to believe that you are in either Marketing or Sales.LETS NOT FORGET…(A MOTHER’S INTUITION) even Psychiatrists believe in this phenominen..
Here is your chance to prove me wrong.
Psychiatry Kills
Senor Lopez,
I don’t think you have been following this blog (granted I only scanned through it 3-4 times and hadn’t seen your name). At no time has anyone criticized medical doctors.
If you’re referring to the similarity made towards Pep-Boys and mechanics, I can see that, but is far from what was meant.
Bear in mind, several decades ago, Psychiatry repacked their sales tactics and butchering methods into the streamlined medical jargon you see today – which is much more acceptable, but more brutal than yesteryears practices.
“There’s no need for a physical lobotomy with an ice pick – we’re way beyond that. We’ve excelled.â€
“Step right up and receive your personal chemical lobotomy, oppsss, pill. They’re nicer, neater and doesn’t leave a blood trail behind for us to clean up. All your crazy friends are doing it. Get on the band wagon.â€
tom
Lisa, I am flattered by the invite.
I conditionally accept. But I am hoding out until I am sure the Scientologists have a place in the debate.
Lisa Van Syckel
Hi Tom,
I hope you are aware that I am not a Scientologist,but I have had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with many of them.
As in all religions,there are extremists!!!…..
So may I have the pleasure of seeking someone from CCHR to be a represenative.Are you aware that,that there are a lot of Atty’s and Doctors out there who are Scientologist.You may even find them throughout the Pharma Industry..
jason
Did you just offer me an all-expense trip on my own time and dime to Washington DC, to debate?
If I hadn’t already taken my 3 days off this summer, I would - who am I kidding. You will understand if I don’t feel like taking time out of my practice and family life for this won’t you? My wife is understanding when I am helping people, but this goes a little too far. I somehow think I can do more good here where the air is clean and the docs are in short supply.
Hope someone will step in for me though.
Lisa Van Syckel
No Jason…..the offer is on my dime.!!
Are you game..
Larry
It is estimated that since 1988, 68 million Americans have used Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft and using a most conservative excess suicide rate, at least 21 thousand avoidable suicides may have been induced, without any warnings to the victims or their families.
So it’s very sorry sorry situation when an FDA official wants to stop the FDA from doing it’s job warning families of the dangers of harmful drugs even after 21 thousand avoidable suicides because apparently good business is more important than human lives saved. And how long can that go on?
Chris
Larry,
What sources state that 21,000 avoidable suicides have resulted from use of antidepressants? And were those avoidable suicides directly attributable to antidepressant use?
Thanks,
Chris
jason
Lisa,
I am afraid to say my personal situation dictates that I stick close to home and do my job and do what’s right by my family. I think you will find from most physicians, a free trip or dinner is really not worth it, whether from you or from a pharma company. Personal time is at an a premium for me, so the actually the investment of 2-3 days on a round trip once you figure in travel is too high of a price for me to pay. You have to remember, I live in the middle of nowhere and I can’t just get up in the morning and be to the east coast by noon.
Plus, I am not sure what anyone would really gain from it. It seems obvious to me we are not likely to change each other’s mind on this or a lot of subjects.
Thanks for the offer though
Lisa Van Syckel
Jason,
I guess I will save my money and use it for my trip to Luxembourg.Visited this country when I lived in Belgium a few years back.
Luxembourg is the home of an American Cemetary where General Patton is buried.
Food is very good also…
jason
Sounds like a nice trip, not much in to war history, but it sounds interesting. And I am always interested in food, although I usually embarrass everyone I am with when I ask to order off the menu with a cheeseburger!
And that sounds much better for your family as well versus paying for an internet adversary to come in and argue. It could have been an interesting conversation for you and your husband anyway!
Have a great weekend with your family.
Stay safe and healthy,
Lisa Van Syckel
Jason,
Well, at least I dont make a hobby out of getting him mad…
prescribed diet pills
prescribed diet pills…
Every once in a while I come across a blog where I waste a whole afternoon reading all the back-posts.I don’t know whether to thank you…or curse you….
Rootwert11
shy sexy girls:
http://hotsexys.info/files/two-sexy-girls.html
Carolyn
I see that Tome is not very knowledgeable in psychiatry or psychiatric drugs. There are supposed to be laws against, abuse, holding “Victims of Violent Crime” hostage, in other words false imprisonment, illegal forced drugging, interfering in the testimony of a victim/target, harassing, intimidation, homicidal activity, stalking, using the so-called mental health industry as a false front, insurance fraud, torture, violence, kidnapping, interferring in support of the hostage, defrauding records in order to make the ends justify the means, wire faud, mail fraud, contempt-of-court, theats, death threats, police corruption, etc.
Much of psychiatry can be put in the same category as destructive cults. They work much in the same was as destructive cults work. “rickross.org”, I also know without reading his work. As s survivor, I can speak from knowledge. I am not and never have been a Scientologist and I am tire of people saying that I am. What I have seen involving psychiatry has been “Murder for Hire”, “Contract for Murder”, “Murder in the First”, and they should be tried for their “Unspeakable Crimes Against Humanity”.
There is not any test to say that one has any mental illness. The EEG”s give a false positive. If one has been force fed the evil killer psychiatric drugs. They leave pixels on the brain. The pixels are drug induced. Much of psychiatry is a con game into “Enterprise Corrupion” and feeing they can play God in who can live and who has to die. The abusers, corrupt officials, Gestapo, perpetrators, etc. feel that all he/she has to do is to concoct stories, come up with a fraudulent petition, kidnap, take one hostage and it is the answers to all their problems. I find that a swift kick in the behind does wonders. Comformity is a disease. Rebelion is the cure.
It is always “Do no talk about the elephant in the room.”
The refusal to talk about issues or do anything about abuse, torture, and all the criminal activity. A “Victim of Violent Crime” cannot be rehilibated only a real criminal can be rehilibated. They demand to use mind rape, mind altering, and potent drugs in order to brainwash. The abusers and hostage takers or those into “Premeditated Murder” illegally demand that what is in their sick, twisted, and perverted minds be the hostage’s thoughts.
These people involved in conspiracy feel that they are untouchable and we can see that much of this insanity is covered up in many ways. We have a bunch of thugs working for the taxpayers that are the real danger to society. \
It is the corrupt and conspiring psychiatrists and so-called mental health workers and bad doctors that illegally push the evil killer psychiatric drugs that are the danger to society. In reality healthy people are illegally forced fed the evil killer psychiatric drugs. I even heard a so-called nurse who is known to defraud records and history state on the radio that they have knowingly lied about the psychiatrists drugs for years. Many psychiatrists and even some doctors are into criminal and homicidal activity.
They are the ones that have severe issues and should be incarcerated. If I misspell, excuse me, but I did get A’s in school in spelling. The psychiatrists that have illegally forced themselves off onto me and refused to let me go were mentally unstable. The concocted stories do not match “Forensic Science” or the psychological warfare scars that I carry. It is illegal to use the psychiatric drugs for illegal purposes and that includes to go along with the false labels. I say send the bad and evil psychiatrists back to Nazi Germany. It is also time for the Numberberg Trials involving these psychiatrists. Tom appears to be just as sick as these corrupt and deadly psychiatrists.
What we do see is that these conspiring psychiatrists do not even deal with the truth. The truth makes them angry, vicious, rage, violent, and seek revenge. As I remember some of the horrors that I was illegally forced to endure during a child molestation case “You Lie. You Die.” What one sees with abusers, predators, psychopaths and corrupt psychiatrists is you are dead meat either way. We can see that it is all about the “Fix Is In”.
“Cat Woman” one can see that it is all about profits and nothing matters about them making a number of people into monsters. These psychopaths feel they can absolutely destroy people’s good character. That we have to respect bald-faced liars and those who are into criminal activity and that everyone else is more important that we are.
What we also see is those into criminal activity and evil are having a fit because fraudulent records cannot be used or transferred in any way, shape, or form. It is a law the records have to be accurate and reliable. It is very interesting to watch the money flow. Perks and kickbacks can be given in the many forms of money, artwork, Cub Tickets, limo rides, food, probably casino chips, etc.
“Minority Report” in order to perdict a crime. First one has to commit a crime.”
The US Attorney took Elizabeth Loftus to task involving her not so scientific books and false facts. Elizabeth Loftus has been trying to pawn off “False Memory” involving survivors. What survivors see is the illegal demand of corrupt psychiatrists, bad doctors, abusers, corrupt officidals, etc. to inject “False Memory”. Crime has not gone down and neither has mental illness gone up.
Psychiatry is a dying industry and the beds are death beds.
It is illegal for them to throw out real supporters and use Mob Action, Mob Mentality, Mob Rules, Kangaroo Court, with them demanding to be the Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
All a survivor has to do is to return to the scene of the crime/crimes either mentally or physically and recall comes back. I also know that some psychiatrists and so-called mental health workers were taught how to kill as children.
Some say they have to help others into the brave new world and declare that it is not scary becasue he/she hides behind the Gestapo. I have seen the same violent, corrupt, and deadly world since early 1982. What they are doing is making excuses for all the violence, abuse, torture, and homicidal activity. Torture is illegal anywhere in the world and yes, illegal forced drugging, false imprisonment, trauma-based mind control, etc. are forms of torture or tantamount to torture. One has to wonder if he/she lives in Communist China, Red Russia, or Nazi Germany because it is that insane and deadly. As some of us have to live under security, the corrupt feel they can use loopholes in the law do that do not exist. What ever does not fit the concocted story they feel they can throw out. Everyone is entitled to his/her rights to “Due Process”. They cannot call a false emergency on false petitions.
Toilet paper scandal - everyone is going to wipe their own behind.