Now, “It’s Dirty:” A Sales Rep Looks Back
5 CommentsBy Ed Silverman // July 26th, 2007 // 5:26 pm
As Peter Pappas sat back in the seat of a diner in upstate NY, ready to talk about his 42 years as a drug rep, his eyes drifted to a group of professionals a few tables over. Five men, all in white button-down shirts and ties - maybe five or 10 years out of college - were at the table, along with a woman in a pink top. They were drug reps, too.
Pappas paused to listen. Technical terms like ‘moderate in cognition’ and ‘high-level function’ drifted over the tabletops. They were strategizing about how best to get to a busy doctor. “The doctor is head of the emergency room. If they can get to him, they can get to other doctors, and his prescription habits could rub off on other doctors,” he explains to The Albany Times-Union, before listening some more.
“It’s dirty,” he says. “This would never have taken place 30 years ago.”
He was referring not to the table, but to the trade as a whole; this need to form a strategy, almost a battle plan, to break into the fortress commonly known as a doctor’s office.
As a salesman, it’s one of the reasons Pappas is leaving the business. Part is his age; part is the increased difficulty of reaching his core constituency. Salespeople have to strategize, because to not do so is to not do their job. The practice of selling drugs has come under increased scrutiny over the last few years. Never mind the 60-second prime-time commercials lauding the newest pharmacology breakthrough in insomnia or toe fungus.
Critics, even within the industry, are concerned that doctors are being influenced in their prescribing habits by sales tactics used by drug reps. “There’s no controversy,” says Sid Wolfe of the Public Citizen consumer group, who monitors medical issues. “There’s so much documentation that I don’t think anyone reasonably has dispute with that.”
The drug companies, meanwhile, point out that they spend tens of billions of dollars on research every year to help patients, and that sales reps have to follow a strict code of conduct. “In the end, it all boils down to helping make certain patients are safely and effectively treated,” sasy Phrma in a prepared statement.
But still, there’s a Web site, No Free Lunch, where doctors sign a pledge to refuse to accept free stuff from salespeople. And there’s Pappas.
Now 68, Pappas comes from a time before any of that mattered. He started selling drugs in 1965. Ten years later, he joined what was then Alza Pharmaceuticals. That company eventually became Novartis, and Pappas stayed for the next 32 years. Sales were relatively easy back then. A rep would make an appointment, the same as any patient, and get 15 minutes to a half-hour to discuss products with a doc. Pappas was quite successful, often earning a six-figure salary with numerous bonuses.
“There is only one Peter Pappas,” says East Greenbush physician Paul Colletti. “He always managed to get his pitch in.”
But as Pappas contemplated retiring, he said he was increasingly uncomfortable with the steps reps had to take to see doctors. Part of it was time. Docs often have only a few minutes to see patients, much less drug reps. Many medical practices have banned sales calls entirely, or severely limited access.
Kristen Pappas Kurtz, Pappas’ daughter, discovered that when she went into the industry a decade ago. “You spend a lot of your time driving around, hoping to see a doctor,” says Pappas Kurtz, now 32 and a full-time mother living near Boston. “You need to make eight to 10 calls a day, and that’s just unrealistic. Doctors just don’t want to see you.”
With access limited, reps started providing lunch or dinner for a doc’s entire office in exchange for a few minutes of time. While not everyone sees this as a bad thing, some decry the practice, saying studies show that a physician’s prescribing habits can be influenced by any gift he or she receives from a drug rep.
Mark Fruiterman disagrees. Two weeks ago, the Albany, NY, endocrinologist went to a lecture sponsored by Novartis at an upscale steakhouse, 677 Prime. The lecture was from a world-renowned hypertension specialist.
“When do I have time? Dinner,” he says. “Obviously, the salespeople would have an interest in their product. But as an attendee, if I don’t like the drug, I’m not going to use it.”
The event had a second purpose: to say good-bye to Pappas. Fruiterman helped by roasting the salesman, whom he has known for 30 years.
“He would track you down no matter where,” he says. “He would talk to anyone who would listen.”
Hat tip to KevinMD
Perspectives from a 42-year veteran rep « Impactiviti blog
[...] 27th, 2007 by impactiviti Very interesting article about 68-year old Peter Pappas, a rep who has seen it all, and isn’t pleased with how the [...]
todd
He might be right, but does it come off as an angry old man - Back in my day there is no way we would have done that. We would have taken the berries and root straight to the office. Oooh, the good ol’ days - before capsules or pills.
501MIXO205BDE
Angry old man…Sounds about right. Was probably pushed out and is upset about it. Times change, old man, times change. At the very core, people are still doing the same thing except most reps these days only stay a few years and venture into something else. I cannot imagine anyone staying for 30+ years. Its a wonder Pappas wasn’t drooling into his coffee!
Joe Cafe
This article was amazing to me in for a number of reasons-
1) “It’s dirty,†he says. “This would never have taken place 30 years ago.â€
This was an interesting observation that Mr. Pappas made. “Strategizing” over how to get access to a difficult physician is “dirty”? If a copier salesman learns that the owner of a business loves to go to Caribou Coffee first thing in the morning and the copier salesman runs into him, is that dirty? This is very contradictory in the fact that there is not a sales job on this planet that your customers are going to do somersaults when you walk in the door. Strategizing to get in front of the customer is a sales tactic, it is not limited to the pharmaceutical industry. Also, the word dirty strikes me as relevant. After being in this industry for over 10 years, most of it during the “sample tracking” years, it strikes me as odd that how that part of the industry was left off his claim. I have sales professionals that have worked in the business for over 25 years and tell stories of representatives dumping samples as pharmacies in return for scripts, information, or even money. With the new tracking, I would say the industry has gotten “cleaner” not dirtier.
2) Critics, even within the industry, are concerned that doctors are being influenced in their prescribing habits by sales tactics used by drug reps. “There’s no controversy,†says Sid Wolfe of the Public Citizen consumer group, who monitors medical issues. “There’s so much documentation that I don’t think anyone reasonably has dispute with that.â€
Where’s the evidence? Consumer advocate groups claim to have loads and loads of evidence. Where is it? Post it somewhere. The University of Michigan, in 2001, outlawed sales professionals from their primary care offices and their usage of branded pharmaceuticals went UP. I bet that did not make their study.
3)But still, there’s a Web site, No Free Lunch, where doctors sign a pledge to refuse to accept free stuff from salespeople.
That’s fine. Please let me and my colleagues know that you do not want lunch. Most of your staff is going to complain about it anyway while they stuff their faces with doughnuts, pizza and McDonald’s that we did not bring. You do not need pens and paper either? Great, nice to know that a pen and paper would change your line of thinking into prescribing my drug. I would like to think that most of my customers would use scientific data and their clinical experience to make a decision. I hate Michael Moore, but maybe he had this in mind with his movie “Sicko”. I did not know the plot line was that American doctors are dumb enough to prescribe a drug because of a pen or paper.
4) Now 68, Pappas comes from a time before any of that mattered. He started selling drugs in 1965. Ten years later, he joined what was then Alza Pharmaceuticals. That company eventually became Novartis, and Pappas stayed for the next 32 years. Sales were relatively easy back then. A rep would make an appointment, the same as any patient, and get 15 minutes to a half-hour to discuss products with a doc. Pappas was quite successful, often earning a six-figure salary with numerous bonuses.
Wow. This is incredible. This answers why he is bitter. He wants the “good ol’ days” and is not willing to put in the time to adjust. Let me guess, you hated when they went from the abacus to the computer to calculate bonuses. Listen, I know it was tough to take stagecoach to the launch of the polio vaccine in California, but come on!
5) “There is only one Peter Pappas,†says East Greenbush physician Paul Colletti. “He always managed to get his pitch in.â€
Here lies the problem. Notice this physician stated that “he always managed to get his pitch in.” No wonder why you did not get more time. You were a talking “detail head” who always made it about your product, not the physician’s problems and patients. The old philosophy is drill it into the doctor’s head over and over. You need to take a step back, listen to where your product fits in and fit it in. I freely admit, my product is not for everyone and the doctor needs to know when that is!!! This way, they feel confident they are getting the best information from me for their practice and patients, not “my pitch”.
6) But as Pappas contemplated retiring, he said he was increasingly uncomfortable with the steps reps had to take to see doctors. Part of it was time. Docs often have only a few minutes to see patients, much less drug reps. Many medical practices have banned sales calls entirely, or severely limited access.
Because of #5 - YOU MADE IT ABOUT YOU, NOT THEIR PRACTICE AND PATIENTS!!!!
7) Kristen Pappas Kurtz, Pappas’ daughter, discovered that when she went into the industry a decade ago. “You spend a lot of your time driving around, hoping to see a doctor,†says Pappas Kurtz, now 32 and a full-time mother living near Boston. “You need to make eight to 10 calls a day, and that’s just unrealistic. Doctors just don’t want to see you.â€
Wow, it was SO horrible, you followed daddy’s shoes into the industry. I will give you this - you are doing a much more important job now. Child raising is by far harder than anything in this world, thus, I will not comment further.
8) Mark Fruiterman disagrees. Two weeks ago, the Albany, NY, endocrinologist went to a lecture sponsored by Novartis at an upscale steakhouse, 677 Prime. The lecture was from a world-renowned hypertension specialist.
“When do I have time? Dinner,†he says. “Obviously, the salespeople would have an interest in their product. But as an attendee, if I don’t like the drug, I’m not going to use it.â€
As a salesperson, you do not work 8 to 5 in an office. You have to go a little bit extra in order to get your business where you can. This doctor makes a key statement - If I do not like the drug, I’m not going to use it. Funny, the consumer group thinks we can turn you to the dark side with a pen and paper. But, remember doctor, these are the same people who lack medical degrees who make you get a prior authorization for tons of treatment that the brochure says is “covered”.
All in all, there will be hundreds of Peter Pappas’ coming out of the woodwork. First, I wish him nothing but the best in retirement. Enjoy the time as my father does golfing, fishing and chasing grandchildren or whatever brings you joy. After 40 years, it is well deserved.
With that said, his opinion is common with the people I work with who have 30 or 35 years in the industry. They feel like they are “owed” the old days and feel compelled to take a swipe at the industry that has given them so much in life. Unfortunately, it compares to someone at a funeral who gets up at the podium to give a eulogy and says something like “Well, he was a great friend for years, but now that he is gone, there are some things on my mind that I have to let you know about.” When I am done in another 20-30 years, I’m going to look back and say thanks to my company, whoever it is, and thank EVERY person that was involved in my career. But, that’s just me. You choose to take a 40 year career and invalidate it with one article. Congratulations, that’s a pretty big accomplishment.
George
I left the business after over 25 years for the reasons stated. I have a much higher opinion of myself and what I do. I earned the respect of my customers before I asked them to do anything for me. Big pharma looks at you like a 30 second walking commercial.