This isn’t about blame, Nathan. I, for one, am well past the stage when I have any interest in the civil justice system. Incidentally, while you continue to insist that the Worshipful Company is excellent, we shall simply point out that it is crap. The “truth” may be somewhere in the middle (ie, it’s mediocre, and as corrupt as any other big business), but what the hell, eh? We can have a few laughs as we engage in a non-existent dialogue, which involves quite deliberately ignoring pertinent questions and key points that the other makes.

What you have just told me, Nathan, is that what happened is acceptable, within the system as it operates, at present. That’s not fucking good enough, for me. And it shouldn’t be for you, either. It is my position that I was failed at every level, and nobody wishes to address this particular customer complaint. That makes your industry shit, however you choose to justify it, and however it is defended by those with vested interests.

Matt

The Worshipful Company [of Apothecaries] has been so-named (by me), because behaves like a not-so-secretive Guilded Company. As for the “blaming,” well perhaps that’s a poor choice of language. However, our experiences are routinely invalidated when we are told that the side effects we experience are consequent to our condition, whether that be by doctors, regulator or the companies themselves.

The effect, however, is much the same: we are required to bear the responsibility for the side effects that we experience. I agree that side effects are listed on the PIL, (indeed, my quack brought my attention to the suicide thing), but you try experiencing any of those side effects, and see what happens.

You provide a service that comes with a risk? The risk being that if one complains about the shoddy practices, one runs the risk that one will be stonewalled, thus invalidating what one has experienced? That, Nathan, is even more damaging than the snake oil remedies themselves. If you’d actually paid attention to the information that you were being given, rather than protecting your profit margins, you might be closer to some real scientific truths, by now.

Matt

Yeah.. Well , unfortunately those who took Vioxx, Avandia, Paxil, Zyprexa etc were not forewarned of the risks Nathan.. That is the point, it’s ok to talk abour risks when pharma discloses the risks, but it doesn’t most of the time.. (and the irony is , it usually takes a Lawsuit for the real risks to be unearthed)

You just don’t get it Nathan..
People are angry because your pharmaceutical industry is the most greedy and corrupt industry in the world…
People are sick and tired of defective drugs being approved and prescribed, of Pharmas aggressive sales tactics , bribing of doctors and psychiatrists, lying about the efficacy of drugs, inflating the effectiveness by skewing clinical trial results, exploiting developing nations , infiltrating patient groups, denying risks when people are dropping dead like flies, unethical practices, delaying generics, encouraging off label prescribing, conflicts of interest..

Need i go on?…

If you can’t understand why people are angry and Pissed off at the pharmaceutical industry then you need to wake up Nathan..

And what is the deal with you calling pharmaceutical companies “The Worshipful Company”? It sounds rather silly to me.

Now, on to your experience: When has the company blamed YOU for side effects? I hear this all the time from you, Lisa, and Truthman. I don’t see how this is possible since the side effects are clearly listed in the information included with the drug. Granted, doctors should go over the side effects more clearly with patients. Just by absolving itself of blame does not mean they are blaming you. There isn’t always someone to blame for the shit that happens in life. From your writing I gather you are not American — but you certainly seem to have the good-old American attitude: Someone must be blamed and (if possible) sued for any negative things that happen to me.

Drugs will always help some people and hurt some people. It’s up to the government agencies involved to decide if the benifit gained by the many is worth the harm caused the few. You are welcome to sue your local governmental regulatory body for approving such medication — but quit always blaming the pharma companies. We provide a service that comes with a risk. We’ve never said otherwise.

The Worshipful Company is steadily removing people’s right to complain about its snake oil remedies. That may not be the intention, but it is the effect. However, it’s conduct doesn’t alter the fact that they are snake oil remedies.

Matt

“Dishonest, greedy monsters”? I believe that that is your language, not mine. I am well aware as to why you chose to ask me about any medications that I was taking. You will note that I was open and honest in my reply, when I could have said “no,” and you’d have been none the wiser.

However, Centocor… Well, I know only a little about J&J, but I am reasonably familiar with the Worshipful Company’s marketing methods, in general. You may recall that several companies are being pursued in the courts by many states for off-label marketing, concerning antipsychotics. No, the issue isn’t limited to SSRIs, but that’s where it touched me, so that’s my starting point. As I researched this matter, I became more familiar with the operation of the wider industry. It’s not pretty.

Nathan, do me a favour, and don’t invalidate my experience. Not even indirectly. OK? When the Worshipful Company is capable of doing other than blaming patients (for experiencing side effects), whistleblowers (for disloyalty, presumably), and the media (for “irresponsibly” reporting on the blowing of whistles), then I’ll feel more comfortable. As it stands, the standard response is to “manage” bad publicity (which often involves discrediting and intimidation). Tell your colleagues to grow the fuck up, will you? This isn’t a game, to some of us.

Matt

The reason I asked you if you took any medications (prescription ones in particular) is because the same scientific method used to research SSRIs is (and was) used to research virtually every other drug currently on the market. Evidently your distrust of the industry is rather selective.

[shrug] You may not like the sentiment, but it happens to be true.

Yes, I do take a drug: salbutamol, which I find works just fine. However, it is the SSRI that I took that I have an issue with, as well you know. The “smoke and mirror lockdown” (isn’t Michael Stipe great?), that I have encountered, subsequently, would be laughable, if it didn’t impact me so personally.

Matt

That’s fair — but I’ll ask a personal question: Do you take any medication? If so, that’s a level of trust in the manufacturer and the government agencies that approved it. You may not speak any trust with your mouth, but I am guessing that your actions say otherwise.

“I don’t need you to trust me: I’m not the cunt manufacturing dubious chemistry for general consumption, am I?”

Real nice way to foster dialog Matt. If you don’t need (or desire) your readers to trust you, then there isn’t any point in writing, is there? I’ll say it again, slightly different: Unless you are willing to show some level of trust and respect for the science that goes on in the industry, there is no basis for conversion between us. It is the conversation between us (and others like us) that is the purpose of this blog (and the blog in question in this thread).

Fresh blogger or not: what does a Senior Dirctor of Corporate Communications pull in these days and how’s the “Bada Bing” lawsuit goin’!

How’s that for dialogue!

Cheers

Jack