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	<title>Comments on: The Vytorin Slump: How Low Can They Go?</title>
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	<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/</link>
	<description>News, Comment and Conversation</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Postscript</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357719</link>
		<dc:creator>Postscript</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 16:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357719</guid>
		<description>Schering-Plough and Merck deserve the mess they're in.  I wouldn't be surprised to see their presciptions continue to drop and drop.  Docs are fed up with them.  Patients don't want to be on these drugs.  Everybody feels duped and deceived.  They have destroyed the public trust and it will take them years to recover.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Schering-Plough and Merck deserve the mess they&#8217;re in.  I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised to see their presciptions continue to drop and drop.  Docs are fed up with them.  Patients don&#8217;t want to be on these drugs.  Everybody feels duped and deceived.  They have destroyed the public trust and it will take them years to recover.</p>
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		<title>By: Confused</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357620</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 14:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357620</guid>
		<description>Prescriptions for Zetia and Vytorin keep falling. Yet, according to recent SEC filings that are posted on the SP website, the BOD saw fit to approve over 1,000,000 stock option shares granted to the very same individuals who are the top executives in charge of this mess. Several of those who received these outrageous awards are the very same people who sold large blocks in the Spring of 2007. What’s wrong with this picture? SP is having some serious problems, so let’s reward the captains of the troubled ship!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prescriptions for Zetia and Vytorin keep falling. Yet, according to recent SEC filings that are posted on the SP website, the BOD saw fit to approve over 1,000,000 stock option shares granted to the very same individuals who are the top executives in charge of this mess. Several of those who received these outrageous awards are the very same people who sold large blocks in the Spring of 2007. What’s wrong with this picture? SP is having some serious problems, so let’s reward the captains of the troubled ship!</p>
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		<title>By: Lipid Doc</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357596</link>
		<dc:creator>Lipid Doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 01:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357596</guid>
		<description>ENHANCE was plenty big enough for an ASCVD trial.  It's not an outcomes study, but a surrogate endpoint trial. Efforts performed in the past have been substantially smaller and have been able to show a difference between groups.  Even taking into consideration that ezetimibe's impact on LDL-C is relatively small compared with a statin, the study had enough subjects.  Agree that the IMT was on the low side, but think they were hoping for rapid growth in the heFH population.  Therefore, they didn't want it too thick to start with.  Agree that IVUS is better, but MSP made the decision to go with IMT and IMT alone.  Not a good move!

On a statin mg for mg basis, Lipitor and Crestor are more than capable of matching Vytorin.  In the MSP studies, they typically made the studies huge under-dosed the comparative statin for a guaranteed narrow win.  Besides, the problems they now have are all about not being forthcoming with the results.  It really looks like they completely blew it all the way around!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ENHANCE was plenty big enough for an ASCVD trial.  It&#8217;s not an outcomes study, but a surrogate endpoint trial. Efforts performed in the past have been substantially smaller and have been able to show a difference between groups.  Even taking into consideration that ezetimibe&#8217;s impact on LDL-C is relatively small compared with a statin, the study had enough subjects.  Agree that the IMT was on the low side, but think they were hoping for rapid growth in the heFH population.  Therefore, they didn&#8217;t want it too thick to start with.  Agree that IVUS is better, but MSP made the decision to go with IMT and IMT alone.  Not a good move!</p>
<p>On a statin mg for mg basis, Lipitor and Crestor are more than capable of matching Vytorin.  In the MSP studies, they typically made the studies huge under-dosed the comparative statin for a guaranteed narrow win.  Besides, the problems they now have are all about not being forthcoming with the results.  It really looks like they completely blew it all the way around!</p>
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		<title>By: Lipid Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357592</link>
		<dc:creator>Lipid Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 00:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357592</guid>
		<description>Working Doc,

Enhance was only 720 patients in total, which means ~ 360 took Vytorin and ~360 took Simva 80 mg.  Statin outcomes trials have generally been in the multiple thousands of patients (e.g. 4S was over 4400 patients and Heart Protection Study was ~ 20,000 patients).  Also, the entry level of plaque was too low to expect meaningful differences in a short period of time, plus IMT is not as good as IVUS.  In Enhance Vytorin lowered LDL significantly more than simva alone, with no difference in safety profile.  Unfortunately, it did not show any incremental benefit re plaque, but again I think that was a size and design issue.  I agree, unfortunately we won't know the results of a true outcomes study with Vytorin until 2012.  

Agree Prava is probably the safest but not very effective; and Lipitor and Crestor are a bit more effective, with Zocor very close in LDL lowering efficacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Working Doc,</p>
<p>Enhance was only 720 patients in total, which means ~ 360 took Vytorin and ~360 took Simva 80 mg.  Statin outcomes trials have generally been in the multiple thousands of patients (e.g. 4S was over 4400 patients and Heart Protection Study was ~ 20,000 patients).  Also, the entry level of plaque was too low to expect meaningful differences in a short period of time, plus IMT is not as good as IVUS.  In Enhance Vytorin lowered LDL significantly more than simva alone, with no difference in safety profile.  Unfortunately, it did not show any incremental benefit re plaque, but again I think that was a size and design issue.  I agree, unfortunately we won&#8217;t know the results of a true outcomes study with Vytorin until 2012.  </p>
<p>Agree Prava is probably the safest but not very effective; and Lipitor and Crestor are a bit more effective, with Zocor very close in LDL lowering efficacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Fortune Teller</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357577</link>
		<dc:creator>Fortune Teller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 20:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357577</guid>
		<description>Rock Bottom!  This is what happens when companies spin out of control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rock Bottom!  This is what happens when companies spin out of control.</p>
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		<title>By: Fortune Teller</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357576</link>
		<dc:creator>Fortune Teller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 20:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357576</guid>
		<description>Rock Bottom!  This is what happens when companies spin out of control.  Rock Bottom!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rock Bottom!  This is what happens when companies spin out of control.  Rock Bottom!</p>
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		<title>By: Working Doc</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357569</link>
		<dc:creator>Working Doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 17:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357569</guid>
		<description>From what I've seen and reviewed, ENHANCE was not small nor poorly designed.  It may have been poorly executed and more poorly reported, but there's no question it was a failure!  In terms of lowering cholesterol, Vytorin does fine as long as the patients can tolerate the simvastatin.  In my mind, pravastatin is the safest and atorvastatin the best choice for very high cholesterol.  Both of these have been repeatedly well- demonstrated to reduce cardiovascular events.  Unfortunately, ezetimibe hasn't yet been shown to do so.  If it does, then I'll consider going back to using it.  But that may be in 2012!  For now, I believe it's not worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen and reviewed, ENHANCE was not small nor poorly designed.  It may have been poorly executed and more poorly reported, but there&#8217;s no question it was a failure!  In terms of lowering cholesterol, Vytorin does fine as long as the patients can tolerate the simvastatin.  In my mind, pravastatin is the safest and atorvastatin the best choice for very high cholesterol.  Both of these have been repeatedly well- demonstrated to reduce cardiovascular events.  Unfortunately, ezetimibe hasn&#8217;t yet been shown to do so.  If it does, then I&#8217;ll consider going back to using it.  But that may be in 2012!  For now, I believe it&#8217;s not worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: DeWaarheid</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357568</link>
		<dc:creator>DeWaarheid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 17:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357568</guid>
		<description>I find it exceedingly difficult to correlate stock price and the effect of news on that stock price as an accurate valuation of a company at that point in time.  To be fair, you need to establish a fair P/E for that company/sector and then calculate the assumed earnings at that point in time to extrapolate a fair price.  Stock prices tend to reflect the emotions of the market at the point of extreme news rather than a fair valuation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it exceedingly difficult to correlate stock price and the effect of news on that stock price as an accurate valuation of a company at that point in time.  To be fair, you need to establish a fair P/E for that company/sector and then calculate the assumed earnings at that point in time to extrapolate a fair price.  Stock prices tend to reflect the emotions of the market at the point of extreme news rather than a fair valuation.</p>
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		<title>By: Lipid Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357563</link>
		<dc:creator>Lipid Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 16:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357563</guid>
		<description>I have not made any statements supporting SGP, its leadership, or suggesting that their behavior re Enhance was appropriate.  I am merely pointing out the flaws in Condor's "logic". 

I also believe strongly in the lipid hypothesis that "lower is better" and therefore believe that ultimately Vytorin will demonstrate incremental benefit over statins alone and believe that taking people off Vytorin when there is no safety concern raised by Enhance is premature.  I have seen people say that someone was taken off Vytorin and put on a statin, clearly indicating that they don't know this market at all, since Vytorin contains a statin (simva).  The Enhance trial was a small, poorly designed and executed study.   It doesn't, however, change my belief in Vytorin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have not made any statements supporting SGP, its leadership, or suggesting that their behavior re Enhance was appropriate.  I am merely pointing out the flaws in Condor&#8217;s &#8220;logic&#8221;. </p>
<p>I also believe strongly in the lipid hypothesis that &#8220;lower is better&#8221; and therefore believe that ultimately Vytorin will demonstrate incremental benefit over statins alone and believe that taking people off Vytorin when there is no safety concern raised by Enhance is premature.  I have seen people say that someone was taken off Vytorin and put on a statin, clearly indicating that they don&#8217;t know this market at all, since Vytorin contains a statin (simva).  The Enhance trial was a small, poorly designed and executed study.   It doesn&#8217;t, however, change my belief in Vytorin.</p>
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		<title>By: Working Doc</title>
		<link>http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/05/the-vytorin-slump-how-low-can-they-go/#comment-357549</link>
		<dc:creator>Working Doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=13844#comment-357549</guid>
		<description>What is going on here?  Does Lipid Guy mean "fat head"?  And how about Paul?  Blame all of Schering-Plough's woes on the big bad media and the bloggers!  If the company truly led with integrity and built trust every day, they wouldn't be in the huge mess that they're in.  If they would simply have been driven by common decency instead of uncontrolled greed, they would be much better off.  But no, it appears that the top dogs needed the extra time to cash in their multi-millions in stock before the public knew anything about the results of ENHANCE.  Indeed, the "leaders" at SP are very weak as they seem to focus on the money in their own pockets rather running a successful ETHICAL pharmaceutical company.  As for the physicians and the patients, there are several other ways to further lower cholesterol beyond the effects of low-dose statins.  Zetia and Vytorin are not the only choices out there.  The physicians are voting with their prescription pens and the patients are asking to be taken off these drugs.  Neither wants to contribute in any way, shape or form to Schering-Plough's money chest!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is going on here?  Does Lipid Guy mean &#8220;fat head&#8221;?  And how about Paul?  Blame all of Schering-Plough&#8217;s woes on the big bad media and the bloggers!  If the company truly led with integrity and built trust every day, they wouldn&#8217;t be in the huge mess that they&#8217;re in.  If they would simply have been driven by common decency instead of uncontrolled greed, they would be much better off.  But no, it appears that the top dogs needed the extra time to cash in their multi-millions in stock before the public knew anything about the results of ENHANCE.  Indeed, the &#8220;leaders&#8221; at SP are very weak as they seem to focus on the money in their own pockets rather running a successful ETHICAL pharmaceutical company.  As for the physicians and the patients, there are several other ways to further lower cholesterol beyond the effects of low-dose statins.  Zetia and Vytorin are not the only choices out there.  The physicians are voting with their prescription pens and the patients are asking to be taken off these drugs.  Neither wants to contribute in any way, shape or form to Schering-Plough&#8217;s money chest!</p>
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