Comments on: Academic Detailing Bill Is Introduced In Congress http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/ News, Comment and Conversation Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:35:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Ruth Widmer http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-408969 Ruth Widmer Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:03:33 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-408969 What a ridiculous idea. These government representatives are simply supporting the lobbyists sent by the banking industry. Continuing medical education dollars represent a huge piece of profiteering pie that the insurance companies and their 'front' companies and associations have been eyeing for years. If healthcare consumers (or practitioners) think that this initiative will be an improvement over pharma-grant educational programs...best think again. To me, all this 'new' idea represents is a trade-off of profits from one industry to another. In this economy, the government should be supporting viability of the pharmaceutical industry,not blatantly acting as its destroyer. Doesn't it make you want to ask 'why'? What a ridiculous idea. These government representatives are simply supporting the lobbyists sent by the banking industry. Continuing medical education dollars represent a huge piece of profiteering pie that the insurance companies and their ‘front’ companies and associations have been eyeing for years. If healthcare consumers (or practitioners) think that this initiative will be an improvement over pharma-grant educational programs…best think again. To me, all this ‘new’ idea represents is a trade-off of profits from one industry to another. In this economy, the government should be supporting viability of the pharmaceutical industry,not blatantly acting as its destroyer. Doesn’t it make you want to ask ‘why’?

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By: Pharma v PharmD http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-369464 Pharma v PharmD Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:38:13 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-369464 If pharmacists can be replaced with auto-dispensing robots then drug reps can too. Let's face it, we are heading for socialized medicine in this country, espcecially after Obama gets in the White House. But reality is that the retiring baby boomers need Big Pharma, not the government, to keep them alive and improving their quality of life). Without Big Pharma, pharmacists would be faced with two weapons in their arsenal-- leaches and bloodletting. Who develops next generation medicines- Congress? NIH? Universities? Ha! It's being paid for and developed by US Big Pharma, at the tune of approx $800 million per compound (and that's not any guarantee that it will be brought to market). When is the last time a Canadian drug manufacturer developed any life saving or life enhancing pharmaceutical (outside of another generic for Claritin)? Get ready for leaches and bloodletting, because Congress and the Democrats are going to kill the Golden Goose that laid the golden pill (credit to columnist William Safire). If pharmacists can be replaced with auto-dispensing robots then drug reps can too. Let’s face it, we are heading for socialized medicine in this country, espcecially after Obama gets in the White House. But reality is that the retiring baby boomers need Big Pharma, not the government, to keep them alive and improving their quality of life).

Without Big Pharma, pharmacists would be faced with two weapons in their arsenal– leaches and bloodletting. Who develops next generation medicines- Congress? NIH? Universities? Ha! It’s being paid for and developed by US Big Pharma, at the tune of approx $800 million per compound (and that’s not any guarantee that it will be brought to market). When is the last time a Canadian drug manufacturer developed any life saving or life enhancing pharmaceutical (outside of another generic for Claritin)?

Get ready for leaches and bloodletting, because Congress and the Democrats are going to kill the Golden Goose that laid the golden pill (credit to columnist William Safire).

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By: Justice in MI http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-369032 Justice in MI Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:25:33 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-369032 p.s. Looking back up the thread, I agree with PA that I consolidated the Medicaid and acad detailing issues. In my "irrational exuberance" against the inevitable "it's all about costs," I was irrationally exuberant in saying it isn't. It is, indeed, partly about costs. And partly not. p.s. Looking back up the thread, I agree with PA that I consolidated the Medicaid and acad detailing issues. In my “irrational exuberance” against the inevitable “it’s all about costs,” I was irrationally exuberant in saying it isn’t.

It is, indeed, partly about costs. And partly not.

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By: Justice in MI http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-369031 Justice in MI Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:13:42 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-369031 Below a link to Jerry A's testimony about academic detailing in the Senate Committee on Aging. This is a context in which one would expect him to emphasize cost-saving above all. In fact, quality of care and cost issues are about equally represented. http://aging.senate.gov/events/hr190ja.pdf Below a link to Jerry A’s testimony about academic detailing in the Senate Committee on Aging. This is a context in which one would expect him to emphasize cost-saving above all.

In fact, quality of care and cost issues are about equally represented.

http://aging.senate.gov/events/hr190ja.pdf

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By: Justice in MI http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-369029 Justice in MI Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:03:07 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-369029 PA - Jerry Avorn certainly talks about costs; I don't think I suggested otherwise. He does, indeed, talk about a lot of other things as well. Sorry you've missed it. PA - Jerry Avorn certainly talks about costs; I don’t think I suggested otherwise. He does, indeed, talk about a lot of other things as well. Sorry you’ve missed it.

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By: atlex http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-369025 atlex Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:33:17 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-369025 Pharm Aid, While Medicaid formularies are forbidden from considering costs, Medicaid PDLs are not. Many state Medicaid programs absolutely use cost as a major, if not the major, criterion in determining access to the PDL. Without PDL access, in most product categories, market share of a product drops precipitously. Other than that I agree with your viewpoint. Atlex Pharm Aid,

While Medicaid formularies are forbidden from considering costs, Medicaid PDLs are not. Many state Medicaid programs absolutely use cost as a major, if not the major, criterion in determining access to the PDL. Without PDL access, in most product categories, market share of a product drops precipitously.

Other than that I agree with your viewpoint.

Atlex

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By: Pharm Aid http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-369021 Pharm Aid Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:14:18 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-369021 Justice, you are confusing issues. Medicaid formularies are forbidden for considering costs in making recommendcations. Academic detailing, while receiving government funding, is NOT subject to the same rules. I can tell you that IDIS is all about costs. That's fine, let's just be honest about it. Jerry Avorn, father of academic detailing and the brains behind all of this, talks almost exclusively about academic detailings ability to drive down costs. Come to think of it, I've never heard him speak about academic detailing and quality. Justice, you are confusing issues. Medicaid formularies are forbidden for considering costs in making recommendcations. Academic detailing, while receiving government funding, is NOT subject to the same rules. I can tell you that IDIS is all about costs. That’s fine, let’s just be honest about it.

Jerry Avorn, father of academic detailing and the brains behind all of this, talks almost exclusively about academic detailings ability to drive down costs. Come to think of it, I’ve never heard him speak about academic detailing and quality.

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By: Rick http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-368797 Rick Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:42:51 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-368797 Those of you who favor this legislation are opening up a pandora's box. Do you want your tax dollars going to this sort of activity? Do you really believe that the congressman is truthful when he says the program will pay for itself? When has there ever been a government program that paid for itself? You might save a few dollars on your medicines but the net result is you will be more poor because more taxes will be taken out of your paycheck. Moreover, since you want the government to counteract the activities of pharma reps, then do you want the government to counteract sales activities of Starbucks? The oil industry? the medical industry? the movie industry? the financial industry? the insurance industry? Do you want the government to go to your clients and/or customers and persuade them to not buy what you sell or use what services you provide? If you were honest with yourself you would say "no". So why is it okay for the government to go in and "undo" what the pharmaceutical industry is trying to do but it is not okay for the government to do the same in all other industries? Those of you who favor this legislation are opening up a pandora’s box.

Do you want your tax dollars going to this sort of activity? Do you really believe that the congressman is truthful when he says the program will pay for itself? When has there ever been a government program that paid for itself? You might save a few dollars on your medicines but the net result is you will be more poor because more taxes will be taken out of your paycheck.

Moreover, since you want the government to counteract the activities of pharma reps, then do you want the government to counteract sales activities of Starbucks? The oil industry? the medical industry? the movie industry? the financial industry? the insurance industry? Do you want the government to go to your clients and/or customers and persuade them to not buy what you sell or use what services you provide?

If you were honest with yourself you would say “no”. So why is it okay for the government to go in and “undo” what the pharmaceutical industry is trying to do but it is not okay for the government to do the same in all other industries?

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By: Bob Freeman http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-368537 Bob Freeman Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:40:02 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-368537 Having been in and out of the industry for far too long, I would note these discussions remind me of the debates around formularies, prior authorization programs, drug utilization protocols and value propositions. All of the evidence, pro and con, doesn't affect public policy--the programs are part of the context of drug production selection for better or worse. Some of the evidence also reminds me of the age-old question: does research drive policy or does policy drive research. I have come to the decision it is the latter. One notion does need to be debunked: very few drug products or programs "save" money. People tend to think cost-effectiveness is all about reducing expenditures and it is not. CEA is concerned with relative efficiencies in resource utilization. Consider an isolated example: Alzheimer's Disease is a growing medical and budget problem. Any cost-effective innovation with superior treatment outcomes is going to result in an explosion in drug spending, pubic and private, for that product. Even if reduction in long-term, institutional services results, the overall impact is likely to be an increase in overall spending. My point is that financial and economics assessments are very limited in influencing decisions. The UK's NICE program is an exception but I don't see it transferring to the US environment. I realize I have strayed off-topic, but I was in the moment. Having been in and out of the industry for far too long, I would note these discussions remind me of the debates around formularies, prior authorization programs, drug utilization protocols and value propositions. All of the evidence, pro and con, doesn’t affect public policy–the programs are part of the context of drug production selection for better or worse. Some of the evidence also reminds me of the age-old question: does research drive policy or does policy drive research. I have come to the decision it is the latter.

One notion does need to be debunked: very few drug products or programs “save” money. People tend to think cost-effectiveness is all about reducing expenditures and it is not. CEA is concerned with relative efficiencies in resource utilization.

Consider an isolated example: Alzheimer’s Disease is a growing medical and budget problem. Any cost-effective innovation with superior treatment outcomes is going to result in an explosion in drug spending, pubic and private, for that product. Even if reduction in long-term, institutional services results, the overall impact is likely to be an increase in overall spending. My point is that financial and economics assessments are very limited in influencing decisions. The UK’s NICE program is an exception but I don’t see it transferring to the US environment. I realize I have strayed off-topic, but I was in the moment.

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By: Atlex http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/academic-detailing-bill-is-introduced-in-congress/#comment-368528 Atlex Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:59:52 +0000 http://www.pharmalot.com/?p=14910#comment-368528 Doc, I have never argued against the fact that many categories have good generics. My point is that PA has never shown in an audited or peer reviewed manner that its program actually saves money. It "projects" that it will save money, it maintains that it saves money and even touts an ROI. The COI goes beyond the money. The folks who run the program have a vested political interest in demonstrating that it works. Political capital is far more important to government bureaucrats than money. Atlex Doc,

I have never argued against the fact that many categories have good generics. My point is that PA has never shown in an audited or peer reviewed manner that its program actually saves money. It “projects” that it will save money, it maintains that it saves money and even touts an ROI. The COI goes beyond the money. The folks who run the program have a vested political interest in demonstrating that it works. Political capital is far more important to government bureaucrats than money.

Atlex

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