What One Doctor And Staff Want For Lunch
68 CommentsBy Ed Silverman // June 28th, 2010 // 6:58 am
Even in this day and age when the proverbial free lunch from a sales rep is considered a no-no, we all know that some doctors run very busy practices with large staffs who appreciate a nice meal now and then. And some practices are very - very - particular about what the reps should bring, and when it should be delivered.
Take this memo from a Baltimore practice about its new sales rep poilcy. Issued earlier this month, lunches are to held only between 12 noon and 1 pm, but food must be delivered by 11:45 am. And reps must email the office at least the day before, “so anyone with any allergies may plan to bring lunch that day…This also allows us to identify if we get the wrong lunch delivered before the food is opened.” What’s more, there are no less than 20 recommended eateries from which reps can choose. So we’re all clear, this is the officially approved list of restaurants and caterers:
Baja Fresh; Bertucci’s; Vito’s pizzeria; Umi; Sake (for sushi); Subway; Salsaritas; Casa Mia’s (which caters to sales reps); Five Guys; Chick-fil-a; Santoni’s (crab soup and salads); Zanino’s (crab cakes); Panera Bread; Romano’s Macaroni Grill; Atwater’s; Seasons; barbecue from Andy’s or Adams, or Red Hot and Blue or Corner Stable, and, in general, any Chinese, but nothing deeply fried.
Oh, but please, nothing from Dibs, Boston Market, Ridgely’s Choice or Barron’s. Why? The memo doesn’t say, but given the designated choices, a sales rep shouldn’t have a hard time keeping everyone happy.
RandDChemist
Wow, that’s like a rider for a concert tour.
John English
Sales reps are supposed to be trained “to take orders.” This sounds like a very detailed order! (So it should be easy to comply?)
5-HT
These sorts of guidelines are actually very common. I probably have a couple dozen of these sorts of memos tucked in a binder somewhere. Frankly, I used to appreciate it when an office would just spell out their expectations explicitly.
Most good reps know exactly what food each office prefers — so these lists are mainly geared towards new reps. It spares the receptionist of constantly being asked what kind of food the office likes, what time lunch should arrive, how many people there are in the office, etc.
M Helm, MD
There are some offices which have drug rep lunches every day they are open. These clinics will promote this to prospective employees as a benefit. This leads, of course, to problems with influence on what is prescribed, and increased costs of medications chosen for patients. Make no mistkae, to keep the lunches coming, there has to be a lot of brand name prescribing even if a less expensive product would do as well or better.
Another problem is that the clinic is “providing” and employee benefit for which they do not pay any portion of the cost nor any appropriate payroll taxes. I’m a doctor, not a lawyer, but this would seem to meet the standard of a “kickback” - especially in the scenario where the clinic treats patients covered by federally supported programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Federal Employees, Champus/Tricare, etc.)
Consider that the value of a typical lunch is $5 to $7 per person. A single employee working 5 days a week for 49 weeks a year would be receiving an additional $1200 to $1700 per year in compensation. Mulitply that by a clinic of about 20 persons (which is truly not that large), and you can get an idea of the magnitude of the tax fraud.
Perhaps if Mass. repeals the ban they will ensure that the clinics receiving gifts/food/samples pay the appropriate valuation of the taxable benefit given to the clinic/employees.
pharmavet
In addition to their hugely bloated salaries, the reps always order more food than necessary, then take the leftovers home and feed them to their families, another hidden fringe benefit. There are some reps whose spouses have not cooked dinner for years. The kids warm up the extra pizaa for their late night snack. It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
Stephany
Glutton is the word that comes to mind. Hell, why not ask for white linen covered tables set up with fresh flowers too?
The entire industry with the gift giving, receiving and all is quite frankly, disgusting. All they need next is Nemeroff to serve the lunch and they’ll be squared away nice and greedy.
Suzanne
Do the reps also provide the half gallon Weight Watchers water bottles I see at every check in, check out, and admin station?
pharmavet
Good one Steph. Most of the time the doctors eat standing up, with food falling out of their mouths while they talk to the rep. Trust me, not a pretty sight.
Tobias
This is very common. Especially in bigger offices with multiple physicians. I don’t blame the offices, I blame the companies for letting this happen.
pharmavet
This is why I like to unleash my acerbic comments towards reps who come on these boards to try and justify their “profession” as something more than human Ken and Barbie dolls who deliver custom Starbucks drinks, Krispy Kremes and made-to-order pizza pies. I know one crafty rep who has developed an Excel spreadsheet that he sends to his offices so that the office staff can fill in their food and drink orders. On the day of the visit he faxes the spreadsheet to the restaurant(s), then picks up his order en route to the offices. Last minute changes and food allergy prohibitions can be handled electronically in this manner, no fuss, no muss. I know that the rep is working with a software designer to write a program that will electronically link the rep, the restaurant and the doctors’ offices so that orders can be completed/changed in raal time, eliminating the e-mailing and faxing.
Once he gets it copyrighted he will license it to major pharma companies so that he can augment his already over-inflated salary. From the way he described to me it is filling an unmet need, something that he freely admits that the drugs he peddles can’t do.
Confused
Pharmavet you are a sad little person blowhards like you are exactly what’s wrong with the world. To assume that these sales people offer now value is just stupid. I feel sorry for those who deal with you in the real world. It must be tough being smarter than the rest of us.
Rick
Has anyone considered that this is where our obesity problem is coming from? It always bothered me that anyone I was trusting my health to would be more than a little overweight. But I’ve seen plenty of “husky” folks in the healthcare business.
When you’re getting a delivered, in-office, all-you-can-eat smorgasbord every day, I don’t see how you’re going to keep your weight down.
Kim O'
This is absolutely ridiculous! I am a former high level manager at Genentech, then one of 5 Regional VP’s at MedImmune. If an office acted this demanding, I wouldn’t let any of my reps bend over to this. This is (was) a collegial and mutual engagement between physician and rep, and the majority of my folks have/had graduate degrees. Me, multiple graduate degrees. We were more consultants that sales associates. And, you want to talk about pocket lining? We set these guys up with speaking engagements, honoraria of upwards of $4-6 K per lecture, trips to fine places, golfing and the like. Did they ever say no? I think not…
Batman
This “culture” was propped by the Merck’s of the world wherein reps would literally give the offices their credit cards and let them order for themselves. Companies were literally forced to comply or have their lunches cancelled due to a “better offer from Pfizer or Merck”.
One offensive office actually advertised that it was a benefit for their employees in their help wanted ads. “Free lunches catered in daily” was a benefit of working there they would tell prospective employees. They literally told them on interview they never needed to buy a lunch as a pharma rep would provide one daily. Drinks too.
How special. Frankly this office with 8 doctors was so offensive in their treatment of pharma reps and the blame falls on both the greed of the prescriber and the pharma companies that created this monster. Its both who are to blame.
One who knows all too well…
Batman
pharmavet
Confused, I am not a sad little man. I’m actually a rather large fellow who played intercollegiate rugby. I will say, however that I am quite proud of my humility.
pharmavet
Confused, to further show you my humility, I’ll tell you that my role model is Dr. Jed Hill, played by Alec Baldwin in the movie “Malice”. The scene is a deposition room, where Dr. Hill is being questioned by a truly sad little man otherwise known as a defense attorney, in a case in which Dr. Hill is being sued for malpractice. Dr Hill says as fiollows:
“I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn’t miscarry or that their daughter doesn’t bleed to death or that their mother doesn’t suffer acute neural trama from postoperative shock, who do you think they’re praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, _Dennis_, and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle, but if you’re looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn’t like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God.”
We all need role models, don’t we?
pharmavet
Sorry, that sad little lawyer in the movie was the prosecuting attorney, not the defense attorney.
Your humble scribe.
jeni
I am grateful for the time I get to spend with the office over lunch. On average the lunch costs about $10 per person. Most doctors and nurses take less than 20 minutes for lunch. Generally they are taking calls and questions from staff and patients during this break. During this time I can discuss only on label information. I don’t see what the big deal is. Some of you won’t be happy until the pharmaceutical industry is moved to the BRIC countries and our medical system looks like Cuba’s.
Batman
Jeni,
Are you like a former cheerleader? I think so. You’re definitely talking like a mental midget. From someone who knows what a professional detail “man” or “woman” is your comments raise my blood pressure. Your attitude is disgusting. Why n ot just write the doctor a check for say $300 and pay for his car wash “a detail for a detail” and call it a day and save feeding his cows at the front desk?
As you can tell, I have seen it all. KOS pharma was keen on a “detail for a detail”. Ever hear of them? Probably not as you were likely put on your dress for your sorority function that night.
BATMAN
Rick
These offices will have egg on their face when Pfizer and many other on a corporate integrity agreement report all money spent on lunches,coffee,etc later this year. We will see who took what from whom. All should be embarassed and the game will stop. Wait and see.
pharmavet
Jeni, the reason that your job is being moved to the BRIC countries is that those countries can hire four reps for salaries that are equal to your one. The fringe benefits are lower and food is not on the detailing menu. The major consulting company in your area, ZS Associates has recently opened an office in mainland China. That should tell you where your business is going. Within the next two years you will become or will be replaced by a contract rep who will earn approximately 70% less than the average FTE rep (lower salary with zero benefits). Drop shipments of samples and reprints will be handled by UPS, no food required. Save your pennies, Jeni. If you are a family of four, get ready to pay about $15,000/year for health insurance once your severance and COBRA run out.
In short, Jeni, your job is what we as your managers call a CLM–Career Limiting Move. Better hurry. Most NFL teams are currently conducting cheerleader auditions as I write.
Confused
Pharmavet, just curious are you a never was or just someone who is bitter and angry about the small role they have in life? Take a walk enjoy the sun maybe get a dog. That way you will matter to someone. RAH RAH RAH
NYC Rep
Of course Tobias doesn’t blame the offices it’s all big pharma’s fault right? I still have doctor’s asking me for pens, a full year after my company stopped handing out promotional items. Do you mean to tell me that specialty physicians (I call on GIs) can’t afford to stop by Staples and buy a box of pens!?!
Been doing this for 10 years now, and if ANY of my offices gave me a “list of approved” restaurants that I could order from, those offices would be getting their lunch from someone else. I realize the perception is most pharma reps are Ken and Barbie dolls, the current environment is weeding most of them out.
RepinFL
Pharmavet is an idiot. I am a rep for a mid-size company and my salary is not huge and bloated, I have never ordered extra food and take it home - can you imagine food riding around in my car in Florida in the summertime — a recipe for food poisoning!
I am not here to defend being a pharma rep, either. I enjoy the clinical education(Chemistry/healthcare background), and I realize that it is not solving the oil crisis in the Gulf of Mexico. However, after hitting the glass ceiling in healthcare, I went to pharma to expand my horizons and because I knew that I could do well. We are not all Kens and Barbies….some of us have a clue, we know our place in the world and enjoy our jobs.
p.s. All pharma reps should have a “Plan B.” I am glad that I can fall back to my previous career when and if pharma sales goes away. I keep my license active and current!
PA Rep
RepinFL,
Well put!! You took most of the words I was thinking. A lot of posters here paint with a broad brush of the industry. Are there reps who taint the image? Absolutely… But, you could also say that there are device reps who think they are docs too just because they run around in scrubs.
Also, what would one think if people classified pharmacists as wannabe doctors with inferiority complexes?
Just a thought…
Cheers…
Vacation1
Batman is right on target: Jeni thanks for your honesty which shows why pharma cos. are all looking to outsource our jobs with contract sales forces to drop off some samples and bring lunch. There is no more professionalism. A lot of it is that the cheerleader types (who don’t even where suits but DRESS casually, which speaks volumes) go into the clinics/offices with the EXPECTATION of just taking the order for lunch, not providing any value added service and information. And the staff, of course, buys into THAT. (free lunch!) To a large exent we have created this climate because of fear of “asking for the business” and getting NO for an answer witht he customer pushing back. Much fewer will say NO to free lunch, and NO WAITING WITH A BUNCH OF SICK PEOPLE IN THE WAITING ROOM!!!!!!!!!!
pharmavet
Rep in FL, here’s your Plan B, and you know that it’s serious because you may know some people who have done this, as do I. Take a night school intensive course in Mandarin Chinese. US companies are looking to such people to set up offices in mainland China and do sales training. Do that, and take a posting for one or two years and you can come back to US in a management role with a solid career path. If you are single there should be no problem. If you are married you will hopefully have a supportive family.
I will be taking Chinese in the fall so that I can expand my consulting business to Asia next year. I’m just following the trend. The bonus for the pharmavet haters is that I probably won’t be able to access Pharmalot from China since the Chinese have this little hangup about free speech.
Whistler
Pharmavet, Obviously you didn’t read the topic! This is a article about a Physicians office and their lunch policy. This office is an office many reps pass over. More and more offices are making their Lunch policies totally ridiculous, you should know that if you were any type of Representative. And for you to comment negatively towards any of these stories shows your ignorance and that you are a Hippocrit. “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.”
Doc
The real issue here is feeding 30+ people in a typical large office when maybe 10% actually interact with patients to any significant degree.
I have to agree with M. Helm MD - when calculated over a year’s time, this amounts to a significant dollar figure that MDs are proving to their staff for free.
Pharma companies no longer print Rx pads, or supply any other office supplies/ services, because that is offsetting regular business costs and carries a monetary benefit to the practice.
This practice cannot end soon enough. If the majority of reps actually brought value to physicians, they would get a minute or two, without having to provide a picnic for the office.
al23
Wow. I’m the child of a veteran drug rep, (32 years with a major) Back in the day, Pops didn’t supply free lunch, but mostly pads (lots and lots of these) and occasionally a few pens.
I remember things changed when Glaxo came to town. They really ramped up the kickbacks. Rumor had it they were paying for new docs office furniture. Oh well, that was then, this is now.
Oddly, I ended up the healthcare business myself. One of my customers is a big medical oncology group. Every week they post a menu of that week’s lunch selection. Kind of looks like this. Monday, Merck, Asian. Tusesday, Schering, Deli, etc…
pharmavet
Whistler, I would take you more seriously if you knew how to spell “hypocrite”. You were confusing it with the Oath of Hippocrates, which is our ticket to a society that you can only dream about. You might feel more comfortable with your fellow illiterati over on Cafe Pharma.
Justice in MI
Vet–As a member of your frat (Alpha chapter), I’m increasingly turned off by calling other people stupid.
Disagree, fine. The rest is, well, dumb.
pharmavet
JiM. What I’m inferring is an indictment of our entire educational endeavor in terms of teaching young people at the K-12, secondary and college level the basics of spelling, syntax and grammar. As an academic I don’t see how you could possibly disagree. How can students graduate withoput these rudimentary skills? Were we the last ones required to wite a five page paper every week in frosh comp? Has buying term papers off the internet instead of original composition led to this travesty? You tell me. You’re closer to the situation.
Actually I’ve gotten closer myself. I’ve convinced my last two companies to include a writing sample showing reasonable technical proficiency in writing as part of the application process. Sad to say I have rejected many otherwise qualified applicants because they couldn’t put together a coherent paragraph. Since 75% of my their work would involve report writing, I feel justified in this approach. Perhaps illiterate is too strong a word, but certainly a word such as fluency is not one that readily comes to mind.
A Real Doctor
The attitude of some of my colleagues never ceases to amaze me.
You know originally physicians took to calling themselves doctor to try to improve their image and give themselves an appearance of education and some respectability, because medicine was largely a fraud and had little to truly offer. The real doctors whose coattails they were trying to ride were Ph.D.s. Ph.D.s wer the real doctors who were actually trained to learn independently and generated knowledge through the scientific method. Physicians hoped to cloak themselves with an aura of scientific knowledge and respectability by taking on the title of doctor. Considering physicians typically learn by the method of see one, do one, teach one, and largely gain their continuing education via the marketing divisions of drug companies. I think we’ve pulled off this fraud remarkably well.
pharmavet
Since Pharmalot doesn’t have a spell check, I correct “without” and “write”. I don’t want the spelling police on my case.
pharmavet
Dear Real Doctor:
Am I a real doctor? I graduated from an MD/PhD program in seven years and made AOA in my last year of medical school as well. Do I meet your standards?
A Real Doctor
I’m well acquainted with the combined MD/PhD programs. It’s often said that the combined MD/PhD means half trained in 2 different fields.
A Real Doctor
As for being in AOA from what I see either you failed bedside manner or you forget everything you ever learned.
Doc
Doctors, let us not venture too far afield from the original topic.
The status of many offices is now to feed an excessive number of people to see relatively few actual patient caregivers.
This is an additional cost to the pharma companies. Before every rep writes in, yes the companies waste millions on other things too, but I still maintain that if the average rep brought true value and had a deeper understanding of patient care than 6 weeks of company training it would be better.
Perhaps a model based on fewer company representatives, but PharmDs and other medical professionals that could even answer off-label questions is where the industry is headed, but it is taking a long time to get there.
A Real Doctor
Thank you Doc. The point I was trying to make was simply that there is no need for bashing people and fields. Nor to put yourself up by putting others down. I didn’t have a very good impression of what reps really knew but after reading cafepharma I gained a new appreciation for what some of them have to put up with on both ends.
There’s a phase, be a mensch, which means be a real man. That is a real man is someone who has compassion, empathy, and is considerate of others.
Almost every single training program I went through over the years at many different institutions was rated the #1 program in the country in that particular area. I learned long ago that a beggar on the street in a third world country could be much more brilliant than I, yet simply didn’t have the same opportunities I did.
I think we need to have a little more respect for each other as human beings.
Justice in MI
I’ll clap for that.
Looking at several generations of my own students (and myself), the ones who succeeded outwardly (PBK, 4.0, summa, etc. etc.) were certainly smart.
But they were also the ones not burdened by having to work 30+ hours per week; deal with genuinely distracting home/family concerns; had a range of other advantages going in; etc..
Hard work and its rewards are great. But it doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
Lets Get This Straight
Pharma Rep here who has been in the industry too long and has seen many changes. Most for the good. I have certainly seen Barbie’s and Ken’s out there but to blanketly state that we are all in the same group is preposterous!! The layoffs have hit this industry and thinned it out like I could have never foreseen (I know some of you would have predicted it). It was definitely needed though. However, let me clear this up- we have a cap on the amount we can spend in an office that is based upon the following (MD, NP/PA, RN, MA) of $25 per headcount. That has to include drinks and EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. So, if there is an office of 35 that includes front office, billers, etc., the cost per meal goes WAY DOWN. And, we do NOT order extra meals to take home to our families. We send in itemized receipts. Pharmavet and Batman are off their rocker!!
Mykl
BTW all you good Pharm reps in the MD (Dc/montgomery/pg county area) my restaurant specializes in CHINESE PHARM LUNCHES. It’s a one stop shop of entrees/meal/appetizers/DRINKS in one low price.
Unlike other places we don’t charge for things like napkins/serving utensils/gas.
Seriously. We have loyal clients from drug reps from big companies to small.
http://www.hongkongkensington.com
Thanks!!
T Kelly
Before our child died of a brain tumor, we visited the oncologist twice a week for almost 2 years, almost always in the middle of the day.
During that time we witnessed (and often ate) “free lunch” every single day we were there. The four person office always had three times more food than they needed.
I was really perplexed by this. Every day in the parking lot of this huge medical complex we would see several really good looking people getting out of their low end luxury cars (Infiniti was the most popular) carrying more food than we thought was humanly possible. Seems like a huge waste of their college educations.
I am as free enterprise as anyone, but where has the market gone wrong that so many resources are wasted? Oh, that’s right, the market has not gone wrong, the government has caused this sad state of affairs. When only a limited number of government licensed individuals are the gateway through which drug makers can peddle their wares, it is inevitable that market distortions like this occur.
Jason
I am a family physician and I think this sort of behavior is unacceptable from physicians. I work in an office with 7 other providers and if the drug rep brought a lunch that I didn’t care for, I would never say anything or expect them to cater to my needs. I would just leave and go get something from a salad/sandwich shop down the street. That usually took up my lunch time, so I didn’t stop in to talk to the reps.
7 months ago though, I got so tired of the high pressure sales techniques that I started bringing a sandwich to work and eat it in my office. I am happier, I can look my patients in the eye if they ask about Pharma influence on my prescribing patterns, i’m eating healthier, and I get more work caught up on during the workday.
Plus, the cost of the lunch goes toward the cost of the drug companies’ marketing budget, which factors into their bottom lin and influences the cost of their medications. I think of it as my patients paying for the lunch via the cost of their medications, and the decision to say no to the free lunch was easy.
stopyourbitching
I don’t know a single rep who has a low end luxury vehicle as a car! Taurus, Malibu, Fusion…these are not luxury vehicles!
I laugh my way to the bank making over 90k not punching a clock, virtually free car, free gas…sounds like a good deal for this college educated person!
pharmavet
Dear Real Doctor. I may have forgotten most of what I learned, but I didn’t forget how to recognize passive-aggressive behavior and other sorts of psychopathology manifested on these boards.
And I’m not just book smart. I earned the Golden Scalpel Award for top student on surgical rotation during my med school career and became the youngest Chief Resident in my institution’s history. So I do have some practical skills as well. Patience is not my virtue, however, so that I have to sort through the bilious rantings on these boards just to find a few nuggets of truth. I do enjoy the verbal jousting, however. It reminds me of when I mercilessly pimped med students in the operating room while they were holding a retractor for five hours on a liver transplant.
Josh
T Kelly…..if you are in a “huge medical complex”, it may not be just pharma reps, as medical device reps make way more than a pharma rep could/would.
A Real Doctor
“It reminds me of when I mercilessly pimped med students in the operating room while they were holding a retractor for five hours on a liver transplant.”
I didn’t forgot how to recognize psychopathology either.
Doctor Danger
Didn’t this thread start out discussing dietary preferences of a physicians office? Guys, stop going nuclear on one another! I used to work at a big multi-specialty clinic and I was amazed at the rules the admin put on the “drug lunches”…only certain times, only certain places in the building, the food had to be from a certain place, and delivered by a certain time…I don’t know why the reps put up with it. But then again, I understand that some of my “colleagues” have enlisted drug reps to wash cars, walk dogs, and other crap. I was happy just to get a nice pen, perhaps a keyring with a nifty flashlight or a whoppy cushion for my kids. But then again, I prescribe on the basis of science, rather than what is written on that pen, keyring or whoppy cushion. Guess I will just have to walk my own frickin’ dog!
pharmavet
The reps put up with the drug lunches because they are the Keys to My Kingdom, without which they would be sitting in the waiting room all day watching pizza reps from other companies move past them like an assembly line.
BTW, Real doc, I always allowed the med students five minutes for lunch and bathroom privileges in between case. That also included scrub-out and scrub-in time for the next case.
Stephany
I’ve got a question.
Which drug rep actually uses/used any of the product/s device/s they promote to the offices they visit?
You know, to believe in a product, enough to promote it….it’s all about the paycheck, right?
Have any of the reps here experienced a doctor or patient berate them for a product or medical device they promoted injuring a patient?
Just curious.
Brian
A more detailed article on ‘detailers’ appeared in the Vancouver Georgia Straight a while back. With info on what happens in the US and here in Canada too. http://straight.com/article-160083/pill-pushers
“But the numbers don’t tell the whole story. In fact, a very large portion of all that lucre goes to the [b]secret weapon of the detailer: food[/b]. “Food is a pretty powerful catalyst for sales,” Ahari said from Berkeley, California, where he now works as a consultant to PharmedOut.org, a group of doctors working to counter pharmaceutical marketing. “I sometimes saw myself as a glorified caterer.” “
pharmavet
Stephany, the object of the game is to get the rep out of the office ASAP. Injuries or side effects should be reorted using the Medwatch system directly to FDA.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Safety/MedWatch/HowToReport/DownloadForms/ucm082725.pdf
Vacation1
Correct pharmavet. Stephany you’re a nut case if you think every rep is taking or using every product we promote. I mean THINK ABOUT IT. Is the DOCTOR afflicted with, and takes the medication for, every malady he treats?
rugby star
intercollegiate rugbly player? Ha,Ha…goodness I bet you are a bit overweight with a small dick and you beat women. What a pussy you must be. Do you have a fast car? Hair gel? You are a classic that keeps these boards funny.
Carry on, prophet.
Professor
Are you friggin kidding me! PHrma is the driver for all of this “only lunch” access crap. There really are “reps” out there taht know more than these overworked FP docs, who have substantial academic credentials, and who only bring in lunch because we can feed your fat staffs. Good docs are not influenced by pharma, but can learn and make their own decisions. Medicine is complicated. Managed care is complicated. Resources are short. ALL medicine - well, almost - is pharma driven, only 10-12% of healthcare costs, and keeps fat, lazy americans out of the hospital. Go ahead, write that generic. See what new drugs come out in the future. Morons!
pharmavet
Dear Rugby Star. I think that you have probably posted your last post n these boards since you will likely be banished for using profane language. Like most ruggers I’ve known you’ve probably been hit in the head a few too many times, and your mental acuity has been reduced to the level of some of the subhuman primates that I had the pleasure of knocking on their derrieres.
Professor, I do feel like a moron after reading your post. I have no idea what you said. Perhaps you and Rugby Star can pool your collective IQ’s and maybe it will come up to the level of one standard deviation below mine.
pharmavet
T Kelly, I’m sorry to hear about your child. As for a drug rep being a huge waste of a college education, I think that John Belushi said it best in “Animal House” when he said “seven years (of college) down the drain”. Or you might prefer the quote of Dean Vernon Wormer when he addressed the Delta Fraternity, saying “fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life”.
Take your pick. Either one will work.
PA Rep
Let the one without sin cast the first stone…. Pharmavet you sure do cast a lot of stones… You may be highly educated but your treatment of others is despicable.
I am sorry that you despise the pharmaceutical industry so much. But dont’ you think with your self promoted talents and prestige you could put those skills to better use than spouting hate?
pharmavet
PA rep, somehow you managed to leave out “rapier wit” in your disparaging comments about me. You really need to start proofreading your posts more carefully.
Request
Ed,
There has developed an excess of abuse on this site. When nearly every post from a commentor includes personal attacks unrelated to the message at hand it detracts from the underlying message and people no longer care to listen. I’ve been on this site a long time. Many of the old timers here I’m certain recall Nathan and his invariable pro-industry postion however, I don’t recall that Nathan resorting to personal attacks. Now that this site is supported commercially perhaps you should consider implementing moderation.
Ed Silverman
Hello Folks,
In response to a request from ‘request,’ I would like to remind everyone to please engage in a civil discourse.
Consider the site to be the equivalent of a lawn party, where you can flit from group to group, listen to conversations and join in when the feeling strikes.
However, the verbal equivalent of throwing your wine glass, or a chair, can sour the mood. So please keep this in mind as you pursue your discussions.
And no, this reminder is not meant to target any one commenter or point of view. Your insights and opinions are all valuable, so have at it. Just please remember to treat others as you wish to be treated.
Have a nice holiday weekend and thanks, as always, for stopping by.
Best
ed
PA Rep
Pharmavet,
I would not say my comments about you were disparaging… You like to blast others who are not up to your scholastic mind. I find it rather odd that when someone calls you out on your behavior you seem to get rather aggressive. Or is it passive-aggressive?
I hope you enjoy your holiday…
pharmavet
Ed, I agree about the civil discourse, and I admit that some of my language may have been over the top.
But here’s the real problem as I see it. President Obama said something that I readily agree with, which is that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. When people base differing opinions on the same bases of fact there is ample room for disagreement. However, when people start inserting their own set of facts derived from sources other than the standard texts or peer-reviewed scientific mainstream literature (i.e. other blogs, junk science, wikipedia, etc.), and THEN base their opinions off these erroneous “facts”, then I think that is when the discourse can get a bit heated.
I’m not saying that there is or should be one “universal truth”, but differences of opinion should ideally come from the same bases of fact. As an investigative reporter I would hope that you would understand that “getting the facts right” is of the utmost priority, no matter what the medium is. I disagree with Marshall Mcluhan. The medium is not the message, but rather should convey the message. And if that message is opinion, then that is fine as long as it is based on a common universe of fact.
Having said all that perhaps I’m just an oldtimer who is way off base in the new world of blogging. Perhaps in the blogosphere “getting the facts straight” is simply not as important as individuality and “getting your point across, facts be damned”. Someone younger than I, and who understands the nature of the blogosphere better than I could probably explain it.
A Real Doctor
Re: Pharmavet’s last comment that he’s only looking for facts and science based discourse.
I would like to remind him that the following was his first comment to this thread.
pharmavet
June 28th, 2010
10:30 am
In addition to their hugely bloated salaries, the reps always order more food than necessary, then take the leftovers home and feed them to their families, another hidden fringe benefit. There are some reps whose spouses have not cooked dinner for years. The kids warm up the extra pizaa for their late night snack. It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
pharmavet
Thanks, Real doctor. I should have not generalized from the specific. Let me take the opportunity to correct the record. I know a single drug rep who lives down the street from me. On one occasion when we were playing pool in his basement he showed me the freezer in his garage that was filled with leftovers from his drug lunches. My apologies to any reps that do not engage in this practice.
A Real Doctor
Yes it’s always dangerous to extrapolate from an N of 1. I could give you similar examples of such acts by senior medical scientists from industry. You know there are meetings with frequent travel and putting expensive meals (including extras) on company credit cards.
You are obviously educated, knowledgable and accomplished. I have a similar level of accomplishments. What really bothered me were the additional comments and that’s why I felt it necessary to enter the discussion.
I tend to agree with Einstein’s sentiments when he said “Most people say that it is the intellect which makes a great scientist. They are wrong: it is character.”
I expect you to continue to offer often valuble insights. Let us have a civil discussion.