Docs Still Like Sales Reps To Deliver Samples
23 CommentsBy Ed Silverman // July 28th, 2010 // 8:26 am
Even as drugmakers continue to throw sales reps overboard, a new survey finds that most doctors continue to prefer to have reps deliver their samples. The findings suggest that, despite the rush to encourage docs to order samples online either directly or through a third-party supplier, sample delivery offers an opportunity to engage docs.
The survey found that 73 percent of physicians still like to have reps deliver samples compared with just 20 percent who prefer online E-sampling services. And 75 percent of primary care physicians obtained their samples directly from reps compared with 15 percent going online. There was no data, though, on sample requests. the The survey, which was conducted by DTW Marketing, canvassed 100 docs between May 7 and June 3, 2010.
However, as another recent survey noted, 12 percent of specialists and 14 percent of PCPs expect to spend less time with reps this year, compared with 8 percent and 9 percent two years ago (see here). In other words, some docs may want to have reps deliver the samples, yet not chat as much.
Chris
This should not be surprising. Having a sales rep deliver samples does not require thought. Using a third party service or on-line ordering requires making a conscious decision to assess current inventory, think about upcoming needs, go to the computer, etc.
SteveM
Re: Chris
You got that right. Docs no doubt like “pizza reps” to deliver their pizza and “car wash reps” to wash their Beamers and “lawn care reps” to mow their grass. All so they don’t have to do those things themselves. Well…Duh…
The business point is that just like a doctor has no interest in engaging in intellectual discussions with the pizza, car wash and lawn care guys, he/she is probably also not interested in engaging in discussions with pharma reps either.
But Big Pharma still wants the doc to hand out the drug to prove efficacy at the individual level. So the business solution would be replacing the pharma rep with the minimum wage pizza guy equivalent. (Unfortunately for the “working poor” delivery guy, the notoriously cheap-skate doctors probably won’t tip…)
Anne PME
Easier for the office to have the rep. keep track of samples?
JimInNevada
I’m a non-MD who used to live in a neighborhood littered with MDs. It gave me a somewhat different perspective on the culture of the healthcare community. I think doctors just like is getting free stuff. Most I knew used the free pharmaceuticals as a job perk for their otherwise poorly paid staffs. The effect is similar to the Pentagon putting defense contractor in every state.
pharmavet
No matter who delivers the samples there is a way to improve the efficiency of the system. Currently the restocking process may involve phone calls back and forth to check on inventory, and, with multiple reps from the same co. visiting the docs, they may unintentionally deliver samples to an office that is already stocked. On average, each rep visit costs the company about $250, hence the potential for wasted expense.
When I worked for a pharmaceutical central lab in the early 1990’s we developed an computerized algorithm that allowed us to know exactly how many lab kits were in doctors’ offices at any given time based upon the number and rate of return of the kits to our labs for sample analyses, using bar code technology. Based on this algorithm the doctors’ offices were automatically resupplied with kits using “just in time” inventory resupply methods that were becoming widely adapted at that time. As a result we were able to significantly lower our cost basis, improve efficiency, and not burden doctors with extra kits requiring extra storage space.
I would think that similar algorithms could be applied to drug resupply process.
9 time VPC champ
“central lab”? wow! that explains much of the past years nonsense.
bottom line is that we would have found a way to rid ourselves of expensive reps long ago if we could find a better model…but we haven’t been able to…despite the best New Dehli algorithms and the finest minds on the planet trying - nothing beats a savy, personable, technical BUSINESS person delivering very quick, very customer pointed info while looking into the MDs eyes. Sure it costs, but NOTHING yet beats it. Despite the access restrictions, the very best reps get in when needed and move the needle. When they no longer can, they are gone faster than Pharmavet can respond to a thread with his broad brush, “double my dunkin donut order” routine.
Justice in MI
Agree that hard to imagine survey could have come out differently.
Disagree that this is somehow inherently the best system. Just doesn’t make sense to me that keeping track of what’s in the closet is more technically challenging than keeping good medical or billing records.
pharmavet
JiM you are correct. The sample inventory tracking technology has been around for 25 years. In fact it is so evident that when some of us applied for a patent on the technology it was rejected because it was considered “prior art”. I would slightly disagree on the accuracy point. Office support staff are not valued for how accurately they inventory the drug supply cabinet. It’s usually pretty far down on their daily list of things to do. Plus, every time a drug rep is given access to the cabinet to stock his/her stuff, they are always moving the competitors’ supplies to the back so that when the doctor blindly reaches his/her hand into the cabineet, he/she is more likely to come up with the most recently stocked items. Somewhat similar to the grocery business, where food companies pay the grocer for favorable stocking position on the shelves. It would not surprise me at all if some of the same payola went into the cabinet drug supply stocking funny business. Computerized inventory and restocking eliminates much of the human element, and I think this is a good thing.
I’m actually likeley have more success with an idea that I’m trying to patent. Can’t discuss details for obvious reasons, but it is modeled along the lines of the old cafeteria automat machines, where you press a button and the shelves rotate until your selection becomes available. Hit the button, and out pops your tuna sandwich. Now substitute “drug sample” for “tuna sandwich” and you get your selection. Maybe if we add back the tuna sandwich we can eliminate the food catering reps altogether.
VPC Champ, not sure what you mean by “New Delhi algorithm”, but the technology I’ve described was developed in California and Indiana.
Certd
Have any of you ever carried a bag? Offices are NOT doing an inventory of their sample closets. If the rep hasn’t been there in a while, somebody will call because Dr. Smith went looking for Drug X and it wasn’t there.
You guys are waaaaay over thinking this.
Chris
Pharmavet -
If you can discuss - What differentiates your concept from Pyxis or other medication dispensing machines used in hospitals? I would have to imagine that few if any physicians would be willing to pay for such technology.
pharmavet
Chris, I didn’t know about Pyxis. Thanks. I agree that docs would not pay for this, but companies might.
Here’s my thinking.
1) According to the website a Pyxis Automated Medstation costs $120,000; probably could be leased for reasonable terms.
2) $120,000 is approximately equivalent to an experienced rep’s annual salary plus benefits.
3) the Pyxis can hold up to 15,800 unit dose packaged samples, much more than an individual rep can carry in his/her bag. In that way you could hold all of the company’s types of medications in a single medstation whereas a rep only carries a limited variety of samples at any given time.
Taken together, I could see where over time, replacing the drug rep with this type of automated technology could save a company labor costs, while improving efficiency, tracking, and inventory reconciliation.
See reference below.
http://www.uihealthcare.com/pharmacy/RxAutomation.html
Chris
The challenge for the pharmaceutical firm is getting face time with the physician, and samples are one of the best ways to do that because a physician’s signature is still required. The problem is not in getting samples to the physicians. Such an automated system would actually defeat the purpose of the samples. Also, in most offices, physical space is at a premium, thus logistics would be an issue.
BTW - Pyxis is one of several competitors in the automated medication dispenser marketplace. There are a variety of different designs and prices.
Doc
No tracking, automated system will work with samples, because usage is dependent on multiple variables such as staff taking samples for friends and family, docs giving months to one patient who has no money, etc.
Doctors prefer reps because they bring them the samples (and often free lunch for the entire staff). No going to computer, wasting their time to order. Most doctors do not want to spend time talking to reps, it costs them income. Reps are non-paying visitors, but hey keep the free samples and food coming.
Stanley
Seriously, you guys have NO-IDEA what your’e talking about. All the “FREE” stuff has been gone for 3 years.Other than Lunches. Most offices don’t keep track of their inventory. Many drugs aren’t sampled anymore or very little. Physicians want samples for their patients and many poor patients need samples. You can get free medicines in most states and cost of $4 in every state. So quit complaining! Bunch of whiners!
Physicians ask questions and want reps to call on them. Actually, I would be concerned if my physician didn’t see the reps. There is so much information that there is no-way a physician can keep up. I am wary of the physicians who constantly ask me for lunch and then don’t show-up. Those docs aren’t really concerned about the free information than they are about getting free lunch for their office!
This is a “Free Service” provided by Pharmaceutical Companies. If you don’t like it or if physicians don’t want the service all they need to say is no they don’t see reps. Patients have the freedom to get generics and usually do. Good Luck with that.
In America patients can go to McDonalds for $5 bucks and then head over to their pharmacy to pick up their $4 Cholesterol prescription. Get off your ASS and get healthy!!!!
Lastly, many people complain about pharmaceutical companies and representatives. Did you know that on average your medicine bill is only 10% of your overall healthcare? Finally, many Sales reps from all walks(Automotive, IT, Banking, Insurance, etc.) of life play golf, take vendors to dinner/lunch, flip the bill at the bar, etc,etc,etc. But nobody every complains about that. Why do you think that is? Cause people don’t take care of themselves and want to BLAME someone else!
Confused
Lots of talk for 15 docs?? A study of 100 doesn’t merit a discussion
pharmavet
In 2009 Teva Generics yielded approximately $14 billion in sales. Eli Lilly yielded about $21 billion in sales, roughly a similar order of magnitude. I wonder therefore why a large generic house like Teva doesn’t do sampling at point of service (ie doctors office). If so, then patients could leave the office with a generic sample rather then an expensive brand name sample. This might lead to less sticker shock and less Rx abandonment at the pharmacy level when the patient goes to fill the first Rx. Doctors may think that they are doing good will when giving office samples of branded drugs to indigent patients, but oftentimes that good will only lasts until it is time to fill the Rx for the expensive brand name drug.
Certd
Pharmavet:
In almost all cases, there are multiple suppliers of generic meds. Why would Teva give away a sample when it could and most likely will be filled with a different manufacturers brand?
I believe there are 13 manufacturers of generic carvedilol.
Doc
Stanley,
Comparing pharma reps to auto salespeople is inaccurate. The MD decides the drug for the end user, the patient. The patient should expect the decision to be based on their needs, not the last pharma company that took their doctor golfing.
Off base
I seriously doubt that anyone here is either a “Doc” or a PharmaVet(in sales). What I see is that Doc never made it past undergrad and that PharmaVet is a socially inept nerd who despises human interaction. I was a successful rep for many years who thought it would be easier to be on the other side and became a PA. Reps cannot do Golf outings or dinners anymore, so I know that Doc is not in the profession, and to discount the value of face to face interactions, like PV, denies the most essential from of human communication.
Doc
Off base,
35 years of sales, medical and marketing in pharma helps me understand the errors in thinking. I was making the case about why pharma sales is different than other types, i.e. auto sales. Quite aware of current industry standards.
No reason to denigrate others here, we are happy for you to now be a PA. Hopefully as a PA, you are able to see the frequent, subtle spin that pharma reps routinely exhibit. The face to face can be effective, which is why corporate spin in those messages can be detrimental to patient well being.
Reads
Pharmavet,
It is time to retire. You are not up on all the facts. Teva has a sales force, and they do sample some of their generic lines. Although which generic a patient gets depends on the pharmacy and and who gave them the best deal that month. Therein lies the problem with generics for epilepsy, thyroid dysfunction, and some mental illness. The 45% swing of active medicine will not always control symptoms, when a specified amount is needed.
pharmavet
Yes, Mr Off base. You are right. I’m a socially inept nerd who despises human communication, but somehow managed to get through grad school and med school despite such obvious handicaps.
I actually encourage human communication. Therefore, for your next job after the drug rep business dries up, I would encourage you to learn the following pleasantries while practicing for your next paper hat job:
“two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese piclkes onions on a sesame seed bun.
-”baby poo, cleanup in aisle three”
-”paper or plastic?”
-”watch your step, the aisles may be sticky”
-”make sure to wash your hands before returning to the floor”
-”you want your receipt?”
-”you want the air freshener with your car wash?
-”do you have a Blockbuster rewards card?”
-” I’ll give you $3500 for your clunker”
-”here’s an extra buck. can we have a few extra towels in our cabana”
-”Beer here, Beer here. Hey hot dog, hey hot dog!”
-”how do you hook the drainage hoses on the Port-O-Johns?”
You can super size for 59 cents more and get more fries”
“Yes you can get extra sauce on your pizza”
“Have you ever thought of becoming a Mormon?”
“While I drive you to the airport to you mind if I tell you about the Shamwow?”
“No sorry we are out of the fish today how about our beef tenderloin?”
“Can I get a 10 minute break after shoveling this stall?”
“Pull around the corner and we’ll talk … you’re not a cop are you?”
“welcome to Steak and Shake. Howabout our double steakburger today?
welcome to Wendy’s. You look like you could use a Double Baconator and a Biggie fries, or maybe a side Cesar salad and our best Wendy’s chili
or, if you’re in the south, “welcome to Carls’ Junior. Howabout a Big Carl?”
pharmavet
Doc, I now understand Off Base. We had a few PA students in our first year Gross Anatomy course. Most of them were disgruntled people who couldn’t get into a US medical school, or were FMG’s who failed their USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Examination), and were thus unqualified to practice medicine in the United States. Actually, I much prefer to work with Certified Nurse Practioners rather than PA’s. They seem to have more on the ball and don’t pretend that they are real MD’s.